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Wouldn’t you feel safer with a gun?

Karma

War Hero
Rocket_Ron said:
Do you live in fear of the police knocking on your door at three in the morning because you`ve just criticised the police/state/government?

Considering the direction the government is taking at the moment, ushered along by the sesationalist media, towards taking punitive action agasint people because they have the potential to commit an offense then I think there is an increasing risk of reaching that situation in the medium term.

However I don't think the answer is de-restricting ownership of small arms to the extent it is in the US. I don't believe that handguns should have been banned after Dunblane and I'd liberalise the market for sport shooting again. I don't see a requirement for small arms as an insurance policy.
 

Karma

War Hero
Rincewind said:
1) every time some nutter kills masses of people in the UK with firearms the government tightens up already restrictive gun laws for us law abiding firearms owners.

Probably an inevitable part of representative democracy, must be seen to do something, anything and given the scale of the sport at the time of both major incidents it was an easy target, so to speak.

2) if more people owned legal firearms there would be less crime commited for fear of consequences.

I'd disagree with that, for a couple of reasons.

The first would be that you just end up in an arms race, by the time everyone has a legal firearm then those who use them now for criminal purposes would have moved on to something else.

Realistically how effective is a Mac10 as a self defence weapon?

Secondly is the criminal psychology element, the whole prison isn't all that effective argument. From what I've read about studies into offending rates, many offenders think that it won't happen to me. There is an overoptimistic approach to risk which de-emphasises the risks of detection. Whilst there is nothing in the UK which directly assesses this with respect to a small arms threat there are some corellation studies which compare with the US and consider it a likely consequence.


Close borders, get more customs officers policing the points of entry to the UK and we might be able to control the flow of illegal firearms and drugs coming into the UK

Close borders, restrict the flow of foodstuffs into the UK, rapidly increase the cost of food. Isolate the UK from the rest of the global economy and watch us turn into an isolated backwater in pretty short order.

Not the most strategic decision in the world.
 
Many years ago after a number of shootings at Service personnel here in Germany I decided to carry my Walther PPK, not the most effective firearm but a lot better than nothing and Paddy doesn't normally reckon on return fire, which when it occurs usually means that Paddy leaves the scene PDFQ. Abdul is of course a different matter. Yes I do feel safer with a gun, it would be nice not to need one but terrorists and violent criminals aren't that co-operative.
 

Rincewind

Lantern Swinger
Crabman said:
Many years ago after a number of shootings at Service personnel here in Germany I decided to carry my Walther PPK, not the most effective firearm but a lot better than nothing and Paddy doesn't normally reckon on return fire, which when it occurs usually means that Paddy leaves the scene PDFQ. Abdul is of course a different matter. Yes I do feel safer with a gun, it would be nice not to need one but terrorists and violent criminals aren't that co-operative.

Well said that man!

i wasnt saying we should all wear firearms all the time and have a real shootem up at closing time. (i'd win anyway).

R
 
Rincewind said:
i wasnt saying we should all wear firearms all the time and have a real shootem up at closing time.

But how do you restrict the carrying when you have let them have the gun, telling them they shouldn't carry the knives they can buy legally doesn't work that well. This is always the problem with the gun liberalists, they assume only the good guys get guns, are well trained in their use and always act responsibly.

Rincewind said:
(i'd win anyway).

R

Regretably thats what they all say, either that or "I wont get caught"
 

Karma

War Hero
Crabman said:
Yes I do feel safer with a gun,

Lets turn the question round slightly.

Would you also feel safer if anyone around you is also carrying, potentially concealed?
 
Karma said:
Crabman said:
Yes I do feel safer with a gun,

Lets turn the question round slightly.

Would you also feel safer if anyone around you is also carrying, potentially concealed?

If it's concealed I won't know. :thumright:
Having been to the US and other countries where law-abiding citizens are trusted, I never even thouht about being threatened. And if ever want to feel threatened I only need to move back to England.
 
Crabman said:
Karma said:
Crabman said:
Yes I do feel safer with a gun,

Lets turn the question round slightly.

Would you also feel safer if anyone around you is also carrying, potentially concealed?

If it's concealed I won't know. :thumright:
Having been to the US and other countries where law-abiding citizens are trusted, I never even thouht about being threatened. And if ever want to feel threatened I only need to move back to England.

Oh I do like the "I can't see it so it doesn't exist" approach. About the only place you can be reasonably sure the person next to you is not carrying is 'air side' in an airport. Any where else up to 50% of the people have a gun of some sort on their person, legal or not.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Maxi_77 said:
Rincewind said:
two things spring to my mind.

1) every time some nutter kills masses of people in the UK with firearms the government tightens up already restrictive gun laws for us law abiding firearms owners.

2) if more people owned legal firearms there would be less crime commited for fear of consequences.

Example - 2 identical houses in same street - a burgalar wants to break into one, but mine has a NRA sticker in the window.... whos house will he break into?

all these recent shootings/killings involving firearms have been with illegally obtained section 5 firearms. but they are easy to get hold of with customs being wide open for the black market twats to sell what they like.

Close borders, get more customs officers policing the points of entry to the UK and we might be able to control the flow of illegal firearms and drugs coming into the UK

R

A few thoughts regarding the ownership of guns for self defence.

Just for a moment think of the scene in your city center at chucking out time as the usual bunch of lager louts indulge in their traditional punch ups, but now many have guns (for self defence of course). How long will it be before the first gun is used, how long will it be before the traditional fight at the OK coral takes place in every town center on every Friday and Staturday night.

Equally if the victin is likely to have a gun how many criminals will continue to go about their business unarmed. How many of these armed criminals will not shoot when the victim makes a sudden movement. What will be the balance in lives lost between criminals and victims.

How many domestics will turn into shootings because of the availability of a gun for 'self defence'. It happens all the time in the US, talk to the police despatchers, they all have stories of taking a call for a domestic and then hearing the caller plead for their life before the fatal shot is fired.

Just a few thoughts in favour of wider availability of guns for self defence.

Having said all that I do believe that there are good grounds though for greater availability of hand guns for sporting use, and there is certainly no grounds for a total ban on the private ownership of guns


++++++++++++++++++++++


Your argument is bogus…

Northern Ireland has always allowed possession of fiearms for self defence and far more people than you would imagine carry a pistol for self defence…

So…

Where are all the chucking out time and domestic murders then?
 
Oil_Slick said:
++++++++++++++++++++++


Your argument is bogus…

Northern Ireland has always allowed possession of fiearms for self defence and far more people than you would imagine carry a pistol for self defence…

So…

Where are all the chucking out time and domestic murders then?

Whilst I agree that in NI personal defence is a reason for being given a permit, and as a result quite a few people do have them this is in no way the same as a general availability US style where you can buy your gun with the groceries in Walmart.

I have absolutely no problem with people getting lecences for guns where they can demonstrate a justifiable reason, my arguement is against general availability as I an completely convinced it would reduce my personal safety, even if I could have one too.
 
Maxi_77 said:
Crabman said:
Karma said:
Crabman said:
Yes I do feel safer with a gun,

Lets turn the question round slightly.

Would you also feel safer if anyone around you is also carrying, potentially concealed?

If it's concealed I won't know. :thumright:
Having been to the US and other countries where law-abiding citizens are trusted, I never even thouht about being threatened. And if ever want to feel threatened I only need to move back to England.

Oh I do like the "I can't see it so it doesn't exist" approach. About the only place you can be reasonably sure the person next to you is not carrying is 'air side' in an airport. Any where else up to 50% of the people have a gun of some sort on their person, legal or not.

Maxi I think you have misunderstood slightly. "I can't see it so it doesn't exist" was not in my mind when I wrote my reply. The truth is that I know very well that all kinds of people have weapons, some legal some not, and some people carry them some legally some not. However I am not going to get worked up about the possibility that the man standing next to me in Aldi or elsewhere has a concealed gun. Here in Germany any adult can carry pepper sprays or a gas pistol, I have no problems there either.
 

Jarhead

War Hero
i know for the un-disciplined, gun ownership is a great temptation, which, i am convinced, leads to the majority of all murders here in the US.

However, discipline is something learned at your daddy's knee, under the Drill Instructor's tutelage, etc. and those people who have that discipline are the ones you never hear about and their owning a firearm until some ass tries to rob the guy and gets a lead injection.

But the option to never have that discipline and privelege? Thats just fascism there, pure and simple.
 

AfterSSE

War Hero
Jarhead said:
But the option to never have that discipline and privelege? Thats just fascism there, pure and simple.

We are all to blame for our propensity to allow the Nanny State to do what they think is right for us, we started the ball rolling in the 70's when we took away the authority our teachers wielded in controlling the juvenile delinquents, well it's too late. A lot of parents out there in all Western style democracies have abdicated their responsibilities in rearing their children the "right way".

I wouldn't hesitate now to deny any person the supposed "right" to carry a firearm (call me a fascist by all means) as I feel in my opinion there are less and less mature adults out there then there where when we were growing up, sure some will say yeah you old farts always remember how it was....well okay, but that is how it was, people "respected" other people more so then they do now...how many of you when growing up heard your parents say hello to strangers in the street, or deal with your unruly friends in a stern manner, or be just plain courteous to other's.

To me if you feel you need a gun to protect yourself then you are admitting defeat, and conceding the ground to those who would use guns to instill fear in everyone else, why not stand up and demand that illegal guns be taken off of the streets, you know who your politicians are, unless your one of the millions that are too apathetic to cast a vote, in which case you have no opinion one way or the other, get after them to make these changes...

I love these people who scream about their "rights" but yet when it comes to ensuring other's are protected by these same rights, it's a different story, it's more of a privilege then it is a right, you should earn it before deciding it is yours by right. I can respect the "founding fathers" declaring the right to bear arms, but I really don't think they had Uzi's or fully automatic weapons in general in mind, it's a huge leap from musket to now... :hockey:
 

Jarhead

War Hero
To say its too late is too simple.

Its too easy to say "its too late to go back now". I for one refuse to go down that road. Sometimes all it takes is to stand up and insist on what you want, wether its respect, or whatever. So yeah, you'll find me tilting at windmills over here, but i damn well won't stop because some jackass says its ok for people to treat each other disrespectfully.

sorry not tracking too well today, sleep-deprived beyond belief.
 

AfterSSE

War Hero
Jarhead said:
To say its too late is too simple.

Its too easy to say "its too late to go back now". I for one refuse to go down that road. Sometimes all it takes is to stand up and insist on what you want, wether its respect, or whatever. So yeah, you'll find me tilting at windmills over here, but i damn well won't stop because some jackass says its ok for people to treat each other disrespectfully.

Are you kidding me? you know the state of the school system in the US, it's no different here in Canada or in the UK, when was the last time a teacher could discipline a child without fear of reprisal from the parents or lawyers?

And your missing the point, no one is saying it's okay to disrespect each other, people's apathy is saying it for you, the fact that people walk by when someone is getting beat up, or drive by an accident scene because they see the TV shows and movies and think, feck me if I stop and try to help, I may end up doing something wrong and get sued.

Why do people feel they need a gun to protect themselves, what is out there that so scares people that they will feel better when they are toting a "piece" around, is it like the same mentality those with big fecking trucks have when they cut off the smaller compact cars, cause it's bigger and I can do it?

Explain the reasoning behind wanting to carry a gun, when the police are paid to make sure the public is safe from harm, the reason you want to carry guns is because you don't have faith in the justice system to protect it's citizens....well whose bloody fault is that, you are the ones who vote in municipal politicians who in turn cut and slash positions in the police dept because of budget restraints, so you have no one to blame but yourself, but as it goes hand in hand with as you stated discipline and privilege, no one wants to accept the responsibility, or accountability.

It's got nothing to do with some jackass telling people it's okay to disrespect people, no one who knows the difference between right and wrong or the decent thing needs to be told anything.

And it is too late, unless you have a quick and easy solution... :hockey:
 

Jarhead

War Hero
Average police response in the US is 30 minutes, whereas for more violent crimes its like 5 minutes. all someone needs to change your life (or end it) forever is 5 seconds. a gun can change that.

All those people who favor gun control fail to realize that government can't be everything to everyone and can't be everywhere.

Its easy to point out how the system is failing. I know i'm doing my part in everyway (including breaking up a domestic violence assault going on upstairs where i live); what are YOU doing? If you're not doing anything, stop posting about it, because you don't deserve to bitch.
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Jarhead said:
...I know i'm doing my part in everyway (including breaking up a domestic violence assault going on upstairs where i live)...

If you don't get involved in the situation, you feel guilty for not doing enough, but guarantee your own safety. If you do get involved and succeed in stopping it, you're classed as a hero. If the situation spirals out of control and you become injured - or worse, die - then you're just another statistic.

Damned if you do; damned if you don't...

:roll:
 
Jarhead said:
i know for the un-disciplined, gun ownership is a great temptation, which, i am convinced, leads to the majority of all murders here in the US.

However, discipline is something learned at your daddy's knee, under the Drill Instructor's tutelage, etc. and those people who have that discipline are the ones you never hear about and their owning a firearm until some ass tries to rob the guy and gets a lead injection.

But the option to never have that discipline and privelege? Thats just fascism there, pure and simple.

Whilst I agree there are many who are quite capable of responsible gun ownership in all countries, the real problem is how do you devise appropriate tests which weed out the unsuitable that are practical and reasonable. Service in the armed forces is not enough, I know quite a few who have served whom I would not trust with a gun, even in uniform and on duty and sober. That does not however mean they were not good at what the the Queen paid them to do, in some cases they were excellent.

Now of course you can as they seem to do in the US say the whole thing is really too difficult and let any one who is not actually in jail buy a gun, or you can err the other way as we do and try to make it almost impossible.

Until they can scan your brain and say this one is safe to own a gun we are going to have very different regimes from country to country with the attendant suggestions that one regime or the other is foolish.
 
AfterSSE said:
Greenie said:
The Uk is an island and has a lot of shoreline aswell as harbours .

Longest Coastline
Canada's coastline is the world's longest at 243,792 km or 151,485 miles (including the coastline of the country's 52,455 islands.)

Your point? Most of the illegal weapons that enter Canada are thanks to our neighbour to the South, you know that porous border they are always crying about, because our weed somehow always finds itself going to California via Vancouver, yet their guns keep coming North.

Where there is a need, there will always be a supply...simple economics... :thumright:


Our kid lives in Sarnia and that pgm whewre[gaelic] they interviewed the local cop about crime and he stated last crime was a tourist from over the border shooting another tourist from over the border.

Only prob with carrying a gun is are we allowed to use it.

Bring back the trusty blade or pistols at dawn.

I love that movie "The Seven Samurai's" the Samurai's walking along the street sword over the shoulder ready for any takers.

Anyone can fire a gun. Even a matelot

The Samurai carried mostly two swords sometimes three a Katana and a Wakizashi. They had a license to dismember anybody who offended them.

The Katana was fave and they where tested on corpses or condemned prisoners. A three in one would mean it went through three bodies in one movement. Another ideal way to reduce the prison population???
 
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