Will AETs bring reducing manning levels on Flights? Discuss

slim

War Hero
My last front line draft was as R1 on Manchesters's Flight. The complement of the flight consisted of 1 Pilot, 1 Observer, 1 SMR, 1 Snr rate airframes & engines, 1 senior rate electrical, 1 senior rate radio, 1 leading rate airframes & engines, 1 able rate airframes & engines and 1 able rate electrical & radio. A total of nine.
Besides carrying out their own duties the senior rates also had extra tasks, as R1 mine were Stores Liaison and Survival Equipment.

With the advent of the AET I believe that the powers in charge will seek to reduce this manpower to:
1 Pilot
1 Observer
1 SMR
I Leading hand AET Mechanical
1 Leading hand AET avionics
1 AET Mechanical
1 AET Avionics.
A total of seven flight personnel

Thus saving a total of two persons. However more importantly the flight now consists of only one senior rate, think of the cost savings.

Survival equipment could be carried out by the SE branch by being serviced ashore and exchanged when due for servicing.

Stores could by carried out by stores branch pesonnel.

This would put an enormous strain on flight personnel but I have a feeling that this may well be forgotten about by the bean counters.

Please discuss the possibility of something like this happening.
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
Slim, theoretically it could have happened a while ago as we have had Full Supervisory LAEM's for a long time, why have 2 AET's? they aren't traded anymore so could work as both Avionics & Mechanical. Not being a Lynx faggot I have no idea why it has remained as it does but I suspect it's related to Independent checks and experience.
 

slim

War Hero
I left the RN in 85 and at time killicks only had limited sup status. All senior rates on lynx flights were self sup (but never used it)
Most of my time was spent on buccaneer squadrons and it came as a shock to the system when as a POAEM(R) I got a lynx draft.
To be honest I have never worked so hard in my life. the hours were extremely long and for some reason the other watch never relieved you. I much preferred the 24 hour working system of a squadron in three watches.
Personally I cannot see how a lynx flight would be able to operate safely on reduced numbers, but that is not the way the bean counters see things
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
slim said:
I left the RN in 85 and at time killicks only had limited sup status. All senior rates on lynx flights were self sup (but never used it)
Most of my time was spent on buccaneer squadrons and it came as a shock to the system when as a POAEM(R) I got a lynx draft.
To be honest I have never worked so hard in my life. the hours were extremely long and for some reason the other watch never relieved you. I much preferred the 24 hour working system of a squadron in three watches.
Personally I cannot see how a lynx flight would be able to operate safely on reduced numbers, but that is not the way the bean counters see things
Other watch? I thought the fixing pixies came in at night! :lol:
 

slim

War Hero
Just one question.

I've been out 21 years so what is the current manning for a lynx flight
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
Mate I honestly don't know, I have been away from Yeovilton for a few years now, this is the closest link I get to the rest of the FAA and the RN in general, last I knew it was as you described in the opening post.
 

jungle_jim

Lantern Swinger
The one thing that concerns me is if they do reduce the numbers of a lynx flight then who is going to carry out the rotors running re-arm. Last time I did it, it needed 3 each side, with the SMR out front for paperwork and assistance when needed. How will they get around the minimum requirements.

I cannot see the Obs getting out of his seat to remove the GE, or to help refuel whilst the otherside re-arm
 

jungle_jim

Lantern Swinger
slim said:
Just one question.

I've been out 21 years so what is the current manning for a lynx flight
2X aircrew
1x SMR
1X Grubber Sup (S/R)
1X L Sup (S/R)
1x R Sup (S/R)
1X L/H (can be any trade now)
2X lads (both AEs)
1X AC
 

slim

War Hero
Thanks Jungle_Jim in my day though the AC (aircraft controller) was part of the ships company not part of the flight. As the two lads are both AEs who signs as operative for L & R work?
When my D.O. asked me if I wanted to sign on instead of leaving at my 22 year point I don't think he quite understood why I smiled and said no way. I could see another lynx flight looming, sod that for a game of soldiers.
 

copenhagencup

Lantern Swinger
The days of a Watch Chief are numbered it will be a Watch PO, Chiefs in the FAA will be novelty items as numerous as ships at sea.
 

fido

MIA
slim said:
My last front line draft was as R1 on Manchesters's Flight. The complement of the flight consisted of 1 Pilot, 1 Observer, 1 SMR, 1 Snr rate airframes & engines, 1 senior rate electrical, 1 senior rate radio, 1 leading rate airframes & engines, 1 able rate airframes & engines and 1 able rate electrical & radio. A total of nine.
Besides carrying out their own duties the senior rates also had extra tasks, as R1 mine were Stores Liaison and Survival Equipment.

With the advent of the AET I believe that the powers in charge will seek to reduce this manpower to:
1 Pilot
1 Observer
1 SMR
I Leading hand AET Mechanical
1 Leading hand AET avionics
1 AET Mechanical
1 AET Avionics.
A total of seven flight personnel

Thus saving a total of two persons. However more importantly the flight now consists of only one senior rate, think of the cost savings.

Survival equipment could be carried out by the SE branch by being serviced ashore and exchanged when due for servicing.

Stores could by carried out by stores branch pesonnel.

This would put an enormous strain on flight personnel but I have a feeling that this may well be forgotten about by the bean counters.

Please discuss the possibility of something like this happening.
Slim, you're not working for the Government 'Let's Get Rid of the Navy' team are you?
 
the flight Structure at the moment is not likely to change as there is always the need for independant checks etc and minimum numbers for tasks such as weapon loading also the point of getting rid of an SE trained person is a non starter as you cannot assume that a life jacket or helmet will not need repairing during a deployment

The AET lads are untraded until their selection for killicks course and are therefore unsuitable to assume any responsibilities in overseeing any tasks set.

Our biggest problem at the moment is the way we are getting messed about by the command sat at home not appreciating the full picture of what is going on.

oh by the way i'm still in the WAFU world
 

slim

War Hero
I am all for flight numbers being increased rather than decreased Fido. From my experience on Manchesters flight the workload was more than should be expected for the size of the team.
Thanks Wafu_Through_And_Through for the update. nice to hear from someone at the sharp end. See nothing has changed with command since my time, unfortunately
 

i/cflyingcircus

Midshipman
jungle_jim said:
slim said:
Just one question.

I've been out 21 years so what is the current manning for a lynx flight
2X aircrew
1x SMR
1X Grubber Sup (S/R)
1X L Sup (S/R)
1x R Sup (S/R)
1X L/H (can be any trade now)
2X lads (both AEs)
1X AC
For info the the future Lynx Flight will be, (and in one or two cases already incoming):

2x Aircrew
1x SMR
1x M1, (S/R grubber)
1x M2, (L/H grubber, full sup with restrictions, (in other words Limited Sup))
1x M3, (AB tripled traded QM/QS with SE maintenance adquals)
1x AV1, (S/R AV, will follow the sane training regime as the old L1)
1x AV2, (L/H AV, , full sup with restrictions, will take on the role of R1, including SE Sup)
1x AV3, (as M3 but with no SE adqual)
1x AC

The major changes will occur with the ancillaries jobs, as under AEBD we will no longer have Greenies and Pinkies, just avionics' traded maintainers, (AV's). essentially the AV1 will be the L1 and the AV2 will be the R1, and using this theory legacy rates will be drafted into the appropriate billet.

What will also happen is those Flights whose AV2 are killicks will find the onus on fault diagnosis and independent cx will fall on the AV1 as the "with restrictions" caveat on the hookies auths means he will not be able to Sup any work requiring these actions.

The ability of the Flight to operate as before should not, in theory, be effected, it will just be carried out at a cheaper cost... ?
 

Grubber

Lantern Swinger
Re: Will AETs bring reducing manning levels on Flights? Disc

The clincher isn't actually the ability to maintain the aircraft, it's the ability to operate the deck. 7 isn't enough to have a CFD and enough ratings left to carry out double Skua/Stingray loads within the standard time. Flights must be left as they are because the job is demanding enough as it is, and any cutbacks in manning would be simply dangerous IMHO.
 

Waspie

War Hero
Regards adding SE rates to flight numbers. Non starter i reckon.
1, small trade. Numbers will go to carriers.
2, flight members have historically maintained SE on board.
3, Flight aircrew used to carry 2 sets of everthing. (May have changed - its been a while).
 

Waspie

War Hero
Re: Will AETs bring reducing manning levels on Flights? Disc

The clincher isn't actually the ability to maintain the aircraft, it's the ability to operate the deck. 7 isn't enough to have a CFD and enough ratings left to carry out double Skua/Stingray loads within the standard time. Flights must be left as they are because the job is demanding enough as it is, and any cutbacks in manning would be simply dangerous IMHO.
In the days of ye mighty Wasp.
We had a friendly fish-head who not only helped out generally but was also part of the weapon loading team. (Stand fast big white instant sunshine thing - i shouldn’t really have said that!!!) 600lb mc.
So! Could not Lynx/Wildcat flights not locally train weapon handlers???
 

Taztiff

War Hero
So! Could not Lynx/Wildcat flights not locally train weapon handlers???
Cant be too far off. As WE Senior Rate I had the Air Weapon mags, Hanger services etc. We used to prep the air weapons (being generic there!) and hand over to the flight in the hanger. Wafu would come and check my prepping (mostly making sure I had fitted the correct gauge wire to the correct points) and then take it away to be fitted to the aircraft.
The only thing I didn't prep was the Sea Skua and that was because wings etc were fitted after it was loaded to the aircraft (saying that, might have done the arming wires prior to hand over).
I also seem to remember we had some smac (233?) trained ratings from the WE dept assisted loading, aircraft tying down etc. on a Type 21

Worse thing? Prepping the live depth charge on the back end of the flight deck on a coconut mat, aircraft safely in the hanger, ships company hiding at the pointy end - just in case them there crystals seeping through the inside of the DC decided to go off when you fitted the fuze.
 
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