Why is the URNU classed as RNR?

Discussion in 'Royal Naval Reserve (RNR)' started by Six_and_a_Half, Feb 13, 2007.

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  1. Yes

  2. No

    0 vote(s)
  1. I came across this bit of knowledge on one of the URNU threads, that URNU officers are classed as RNR. Its also on one of the threads in the RNR forum that they are called 'List 8'. Now as far as I know, the OTC is not a part of the TA, so I wonder why URNU's get the reservist distinction.

    Also to my understanding, the students that join the URNU do not take a fitness test as we do in the RNR. They do not sit an AIB like the RNR officers do and they certainly don't go to the AFCO!

    So why are they RNR? I'm certain that there's a good reason for it but I'm currently at a loss as to what it is. Anyone care to enlighten me?
  2. Good question...I did some time on a P2000 which are the URNU boats and at the time their head was Commodore MFP (Minor Vessels & Fish Protection) not Commodore RNR...that was a while ago so may have changed since then!

    We have been as a unit intergrating and inviting the URNU into some of our weekends which I think can only be a good thing!

    Its farily clear that some of them either dont consider then RN as a long term career path or in honesty arent best suited to a long term career as an officer in the RN...If they enjoy being a part of the Navy there is an ideal opportunity to recruit them into the RNR!
  3. It is just an honourary title in the same way that sea cadet officers are given the RNR title.
  4. Actually the OTC is part of the TA, and what is more most of the officers are TA officers, with mobilisation commitment. Most OTC are commanded by regulars, but this has not always been the case.

    The Army run the OTC as a recruitment tool, many cadets either join the regulars or the TA, and they have a really mature model to migrate people between. For example, OTC cadets can be commissioned into the TA while still at university, while the RNR wait until people have left the URNU, and then try and recruit them once they have started their new jobs. I think the RNR should learn from how the TA use the OTC.
  5. I'd really like some clairification on the URNU, as we have a snotty coming down to our cadets at the moment who is so far up her own arse I'm suprised she has room for shit.

    She sturtes around as if she owns the place and seems to think she even out ranks the CO, Frankly I along with many other of the other staff would like to lamp her out or at least have a word and point out she has little or no authority in our unit.

    So far I've only been able to tell people that as far as I know she's just a glorified sea cadet for university students, which she didn't take to kindly to. Any help greatfully received.

  6. I didn't realise that they were officers, only midshipmen. In my day that meant they were below AB level.
  7. do ratings salute them?
  8. I'm a member of staff at the unit and as I said it's not just me with the problem with her, in fact I'm afriad to say we now have 3 of them down at the unit and all of them have an attatude problem but they are all mates so maybe it's just a personality trait thats brought them together rather than the URNU as a whole.
  9. Whats brought them over? Past history to the unit or some other link? I'd suggest a quick CO - CO call may be in order if they're being loaned, suggesting that while their presence is valued, their attitudes are not?
  10. Good point well phrased. According to BR60a along with SCC officers they do not hold a commission in the RNR. Not that i have ever saluted a SCC officer anyway. :lol:
  11. I think a rule of thumb is that if they have a white flash you don't salute. If they have gold braid then you do salute.
  12. The commission is irrelevant, in the RN salutes should be given to all officers, including midshipmen. Whether this happens in practice obviously depends on local rules, e.g. on board ship, in training establishments, etc.

    There are traditionally three types of "officer" in the RN, commissioned officers (SLt RN and above), subordinate officers (Cadet RN, Mid RN and A/SLt RN), and old-style warrant officers (WO RN and CWO RN). All were saluted. The old-style warrants are gone, as are the ranks of Cdt RN and A/SLt RN, so the only non-commissioned "officer" left in the RN is the midshipman.

    In the reserves and the cadets, things are different. The RNR still has A/SLts, who are also not commissioned, and in the cadets even the Lts are not commissioned. None of this matters. If he is wearing an officer's cap badge he is an officer and should be saluted, subject to local rules.

    As for List 7 & 8 being part of the RNR, the only people who have a right to complain are the original RNR (List 1). We List 3 and below (former RNVR) are mere interlopers, IMHO.
  13. Not my experience, I have had to salute and "sir" these scuffy little oiks.
  14. I'm afraid I have a problem with the very idea of URNU members being midshipmen as it were automatically. The presumption seems to be that, because they are at university, they fall into the 'officer-class' (rather than the 'rating-class', if there is such a thing). That presumption ('been to university, you're an officer now') is seriously outdated, especially seeing as 42 % of 18 - 30 yr olds in Britain now go to university.... When in the old days, say, one in ten went to university one could take 'just having a degree' as a sufficient condition for being eligible to be an officer (at least as far as just the plain maths goes), now you can't, because 42% of navy manpower can't be officers!

    As a previous post pointed out, places at URNUs are oversubscribed and the URNUs do select for potential, but why, oh why is the emphasis on making them all into little proto-officers? Far better, I think, would be just to recruit students onto the RNR's list 7. And let them be seamen when they join - many RNR units seem to have too few junior rates anyway - and let the ones that are serious about being officers go to AIB.
  15. As far as I can see it's all a bit of a grey area. URNUs are as much RNR as OTCs are TA but both are different in that they fulfil different roles to that of the RNR or TA proper (this being covered somewhat extensively before elsewhere).
    URNUs could potentially benefit from more RNR exposure and potentially training but that would bugger up the syllabus provided by BRNC Dartmouth for the general three year period so thus they can't be trained as RNR.

    Being placed as Midshipman-grade officers (ranking from O/C to Midshipman+ x-years seniority) is conveiniant for all inasmuch as letthecatoutofthebag has previously stated and keeps with the other services' trends in grading them as OF-Ds (wouldn't want the URNUs to feel that they were worth less than the OTC or UAS now would we?).
    Being new to URNU I would say that, yes, there are a few who take their status far too seriously and need sorting out but the majority who I have met and know don't really think of themselves as RNR, realise that they aren't RNR and are happy with their lot.

    Personally I'm all for greater cross-training/integration with the RNR and the RN but each organisation has its own function and the RN won't be willing to shell out for a new separate organisation to control the URNUs when that's already done by the current balance between Dartmouth, 1PBS and the RNR, though I would have to agree with the logic in C_Bs post.
  16. The problem of over-subscription can be solved in one easy step. Stop paying them. If they do not receive a salary for their training, then I suspect many will leave and the unit will consist of only the dedicated. Also as a result the quality of the Midshipmen in the unit would be better. :idea:

    I also think that the automatic granting of an officer rank is also invalid. I understand that there is a rule in the RAF that a civilian with a university degree is an 'honoury officer' on the base and messes in the Officer's Mess. However undergraduates do not possess degrees, they are merely studying for one. So really they should be enrolled as JR's but marked as potential officers.

    Alternatively, dispense with the URNU altogether and recruit them into the RNR properly. This will expand the numbers in the Junior Rates Messes in the RTC's throughout the country and probably save the UK taxpayer a fair few thousand pounds or more that went into the adminstration of it all.
  17. However, without URNUs as a semi-independent entity the number of recruits would probably drop; I know of a few people who were put off by the slight Reservist connotation since their idea of a "Reservist" is that they are likely to be deployed sometime in the not-so-distant future.

    As for not paying them, this would be self-defeating insofar as a little bit of money on the side is always useful to a student and depriving them of this possibility might push them away to other part-time employment, which is what it amounts to in essence - the money question often arises surrounding going on a sea weekend, believe me. Yes if you stop paying them then you would probably be left with the "dedicated" few but that would be very few; possibly few enough to justify getting rid; an action which would be stupid considering the state of recruitment and retention over the Armed Forces as a whole.
    WRT trying to save money maybe that would be better achieved lobbying your MPs to stop the 60% increase in MPs pay sometime soon or starting one of the increasingly popular online petitions... :twisted:

    Finally, surely over-subscription is a good thing and would be remedied best by somehow making it worthwhile to expand the URNUs or redirecting them to the RNR as an alternative?
  18. I don't think taking students into the RNR is a good idea. If they want to join the RN, then the RNR has wasted a lot of resources training them for nothing. Also a lot of students don't want that sort of commitment, but like the idea of trying out the Navy for size. The URNU has a place, but it will always be a bit difficult to work out where it fits. My view is that the mids should have the white pre fleetboard flashes marked URNU (like the RAF does for RAFP) or their uniform should have some other marker to show that whilst they are members of the Naval service, they have no place in the chain of command.
  19. Comments above all generally valid, however think the biggest point is the sheer publicity the URNU generates.

    In the current climate of an ever decreasing Fleet, a squadron that provides 14 ships and a huge footprint over the coastal UK has to be an advantage. As Jim30 says, it will always be hard to justify nitty gritty concerning URNU. However it is the successfull job it does that is important, not who it is controlled by. (IMHO :wink: )
  20. sorry slightly off topic but I've spent the last 3 years as a SCC PO and off to uni this september, I'm a 28 year old specialising in seaman ship and writer /store, worth me trying for URNU instead of swooping cadet unit?

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