Why is the UK like this?

Discussion in 'The Quarterdeck' started by bobc2112, Oct 31, 2007.

Welcome to the Navy Net aka Rum Ration

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial RN website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. I'm sure this subject has had it's arse spanked thoroughly somewhere or other but when will the UK start to offer it's servicemen and women any modicum of respect? The Americans hold their forces in the highest of esteem, offer discounts for them and their families (Seaworld etc) but what do we receive? I'll tell you what, FOOK ALL!!! Nobody is expecting hand-outs but I'm fed up of hearing of the age-old sport of 'skate-bashing' where six or more P----y cowards jump one homeward bound and socially confused sailor(ette), wielding no more vicious a weapon than a messy burger, and beat the crap out of him/her for a laugh. I've received nothing but the most fantastic hospitality when over in the US, they've treat us like royalty. What happens when the US Navy visit our home ports...?.... they get ripped off and filled in. How crap is that? I also would like to applaud a local editoral that shall be known as the P----y e-----g n--s for finding any and every way possible to bring Jack, Jenny and Royal down whenever possible but bleat like a fooking lamb at the threat of a dockyard closure and the resultant poverty this may envoke. Bollocks to the lot of 'em.
    Rant over. Soz.
     
  2. Hi mate,

    All very good point and I totally agree!

    One way the armed forces could start to improve this is to not only allow services men and women to wear their uniforms off base but to positively encourage it (as our friends over the pond do). The general public pay for the armed services but when do you ever see them unless you live next to a military base or on TV. I think as a whole the general public are very proud of our boys and girls and I think seeing them around more often would help to remind them of that and then hopefully things would change for our armed services.

    Just my 2 pennies worth
     
  3. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Hmm, "homeward bound and socially confused sailor(ette)"... in rig was he/she? If not, then how would the people who "...beat the crap out of him/her for a laugh" know they were a service person?

    "P----y e-----g n--s" stopped publication many years ago... now "The News".
     
  4. Sgt P, you saying you can't recognise Jack/Jenny/Royal from 100 yards whilst perambulating down Queen Street/The Hard/Gosport High Street irrespective of whether they were naked, in rig or wearing the giveaway deployment t-shirts?? Hmmmmm.....! The haircuts can give the local thugs a clue too, as can the direction they are walking.Dog watch recognition instruction for you me hearty!! lololol.
    Thank you for correcting my innaccurate naming of arguabley THE worst daily rag ON THE PLANET.
     
  5. Part of the problem is that in the US, the Forces are seen as defending the "American way", and thus their servicemen are seen as fighting for the common good. In the UK, the Forces are largely ignored and people ignorant of what we do. Seeing as how the concept of Britishness is largely vanished, there is no defence of it. Iraq and Afghanistan are seen as SEPs (somebody elses problems) that don't affect Joe Public. The Forces are a cost sink with no real value. When the public do see us, we're captured by Iranians, or parading in front of Buck House. Personally, I think that the cancellation of the Royal Tournament did far greater damage to the Force's reputation than was ever envisaged. As for respect from businesses, part of the problem there stems from ex-servicemen in high commercial office who forget where they came from and who ignore the current cohort of servicemen (in contrast, I've found the pride of their service life far more public).
     
  6. It feels to me that UK forces fight political wars now in an attempt to make Bliar/Brown etc look good on the world stage, and not defend our country like people expect them to do (WW1, WW2 and the Falklands for example). At the end of the day the Afgans and the Iraqi's were not threatening to invade the UK.

    However, the thick insular American people beleive that the Afgans and Iraqi's do pose a direct threat to their counrty and habitants which is maybe understandable after an unprovoked attack on 9/11.

    So the Americans respect their forces for defending them and the British just see tax payers money being wasted fighting some 'war' (there are a lot of Brits who see it more as a conflict than a war) which doesn't affect us in any way.

    Just remember the Americans did try it once with Nam and look how they viewed their own forces then.

    Glad I dont put my life on the line for political reasons.
     
  7. Just playing devil's advocate for a second, but if we unilaterally withdrew from Afghanistan and Iraq, wouldn't Al Qaeda then have a training ground from which to launch terror against the UK? Thus, aren't the roles of the Forces in those countries effectively defending the UK from attack? It doesn't matter who started what, we are where we are and AQ now sees the UK as a valid target.
     
  8. Respect has to be earned. Perhaps when British Servicemen start treating themselves with a little more respect then Joe Public will follow. It's been mentioned on RR before but when civilians see Jolly Jack wearing rig in places like Fareham or Torpoint, they usually look like a complete bag o'shite. When they are not in rig Jack and Jenny can often be found shit-faced and performing in public. It wears a little thin after a while. Couple this with the utter disbelief that greeted the antics of HMS Ice-Cream's crew in the Shatt al-Arab and their leaders in UK and it is small wonder that the UK hasn't produced it's crop of yellow-ribbon patriots.

    The majority of the British population was entirely against the invasion of Iraq and remain so to this day. They realise not only that Bliar took the country to war under false pretences and wrapped in Bush's lies but that senior officers of the British Forces eagerly bought into it. It's a wonder what the prospect of a Knighthood will do; but from a civilian point of view why support the men and the horses that make up the forces that go to barbarious wars?? It's a sad fact that because of Bliar's actions the forces are now seen as part of the problem not part of the answer.

    The British will support their forces if they see that a war is warranted and necessary. Iraq is neither and there is a growing split between servicemen and civilians that we will ignore at our peril. In the United States of Amnesia things are a little different. Since the end of WW2 they have invaded 25 countries in the cause of US interests so they have an established track record of waving flags to cover up crimes.

    If you want to be treated like royalty I guess that your best bet is to marry a princess :thumright:

    RM
     
  9. I always travel to/from work in rig (No 3), and am proud to do so but working rig for matelots looks bloody scruffy. I can see why we dont all wear CS95 (would be cheaper in the long run with just 1 supplier ding the whole armed service) It looks smart and you can still tell the service from the beret, eppaulettes and by having a small white ensign on the sleeve. This would also do away with the vast ammount of confusing branch badges that have appeared in recent times (a chef is a chef in the army, a chef in the airforce and a logistition, catering services, WTF in the Navy ?????)
     


  10. Jesu Christi!!! The entire point is that we have made Iraq the best training ground that AQ could ever wish for. Usama bin Laden must have thought that all his birthdays had come at once when we invaded. Not only did we give him targets but we gave every Muslim from Pakistan to Morocco a Cassus Belli. There is no military reason for the British to remain in Iraq; we are there for political reasons - to provide cover for the USA as a partner in Bush's unravelling Coalition of the Willing.

    RM
     
  11. The only possible reason I can see for British troops remaining in Iraq is that having caused the whole mess we ought to do something about dealing with it.

    "if we unilaterally withdrew from Afghanistan and Iraq, wouldn't Al Qaeda then have a training ground from which to launch terror against the UK?" AQ train in Pakistan and possibly even in the Lake District so withdrawing (or not) from Iraq and 'stan will not substantially affect this.

    With regard to the public perception of these wars I've been thinking a lot about this subject because to me it ties in to the whole 'wearing a poppy' debate on another thread. I have quite a strong personal interest in the subject having been involved in the past on the fringes of the Peace Movement. I think attitudes to the idea of going to war have changed significantly over the decades. Many of us though the Cold War was (in short) little more then an excuse for the superpowers to spend money on arms and behave badly in Third World countries. The Falklands and former Yugoslavia were probably exceptions to this though there is much debate over whether these conflicts could have been avoided and/or better managed.

    Many people look at the death toll in the First World War and find it incomprehensible that millions were prepared to die for the sake of a squabble between the crowned heads of Europe - most of whom were related. I suppose they forget - and I have been guilty of this myself in the past - that society then was very different.

    Apart from anything else public understanding of war and the armed forces is influenced by the fact that if you were born after 1965 then your parents probably didn't themselves experience the Second World War even as a childhood memory let alone having fought in it. People of 45 or over now may have had Grandparents who fought in WW1 but the point I want to make is that this close family connection to the experience of the horror of war and bereavement is dwindling as an overall percentage of the population.

    Wars today are in some ways different from those in the past but for all the similarities between the Taliban's treatment of women and Hitler's treatment of the Jews it wasn't the Nazi domestic policy that led to a declaration of war but when these policies started to have international ramifications that Britain declared war on Germany.

    Just a few thoughts ...

    GR
     
  12. [Still in Devil's Advocate role] You didn't read the whole thing. It doesn't matter how we got into the mire: we're there now. If we leave both countries, we have anarchy, and that is exactly where AQ train themselves better.

    In response to the "well they have Pakistan and the Lake District to train in" comment, their track record with just those areas to work in hasn't been exactly brilliant. When AQ had Afghanistan (and Somalia, for that matter) in which to base themselves, we had embassies in Africa blowing up, we had twin towers coming down (in the second attempt on them, we had destroyers in Yemen getting blown up). It doesn't take much for a handful of guys to make some explosives, pack it into a nail/nuts/bolts laden rucksack, synchronise watches and set off down the London transport system.

    [In non-devil's advocate mode] Don't get me wrong, I deplore the adventurism that drove us into Iraq, and am left bewildered at what the plan was/is for Afghanistan (surely someone in Government on either side recalls Korea and Vietnam where having an enemy being resupplied from across the border makes fighting guerilla warfare virtually impossible to win???). However, neither Iraq nor Afghanistan will settle down if we just upped sticks and buggered off. The current plan of "hand overs" before withdrawing at least gives the politicians the future excuse of "it wasn't broken when we gave it to them".
     
  13. Oslo - I read your entire post; always do because you talk a lot of sense :thumright: I also fully understood what you wrote and the fact that you were playing Devil's Advocate. My point is that we are no safer for having boots on the ground in Iraq, particularly since the reason for them being there is as a political fig-leaf for the USA. Afghanistan is quite a different story although that failed state is also likely lost because we took our collective eyes off the ball when Bliar & Co invaded Iraq. We won't mention the oil.

    Here is a litany of the Coalition, most of whom were bullied either economically, militarily or politically into supplying a token amount of [non-combat] troops and the countries who have disconnected from this US jihad. We need to do the same PDQ

    Countries Supporting Ops in Iraq

    Country In Iraq In Theater Total Future

    1 United Kingdom ~7,200 1,300 ~8,500
    2 South Korea ~2,300 ~2,300 ~1,100 (?)
    3 Australia ~850 ~541 ~1,400
    4 Poland 900 900
    5 Romania 865 865
    6 Denmark 460 ~35 (NATO and UNAMI) ~500
    7 El Salvador 380 380
    8 Georgia 300 550 (UNAMI) 850 ~2,400 (?)
    9 Azerbaijan 150 150
    10 Bulgaria ~150 ~150
    11 Latvia 136 136
    12 Albania 120 120
    13 Czech Republic 100 100
    14 Mongolia 100 100
    15 Lithuania ~50 ~50
    16 Armenia 46 46
    17 Bosnia & Herzegovina 37 37
    18 Estonia 34 34
    19 Macedonia 33 33
    20 Kazakhstan 29 29
    21 Moldova* 12 12
    TOTAL ~14,200 ~17,000
    UNAMI Fiji ** 150 150


    Hungary *** 0 Withdrew troops: Mar. 2005
    Nicaragua 0 Withdrew troops: Feb. 2004
    Spain 0 Withdrew troops: Late-Apr. 2004
    Dominican Republic 0 Withdrew troops: Early-May. 2004
    Honduras 0 Withdrew troops: Late-May. 2004
    Philippines 0 Withdrew troops: mid-Jul. 2004
    Thailand 0 Withdrew troops: Late-Aug. 2004
    New Zealand 0 Withdrew troops: Late-Sep. 2004
    Tonga 0 Withdrew troops: mid-Dec. 2004
    Portugal 0 Withdrew troops: mid-Feb. 2005
    Singapore**** 0 Withdrew troops: Mar. 2005
    Norway 0 Withdrew troops: Oct. 2005
    Ukraine 0 Withdrew troops: Dec. 2005
    The Netherlands 0 Withdrew troops: Mar. 2005
    Japan 0 Withdrew troops: Jul. 2006
    Italy 0 Withdrawal troops: End of Nov. 2006
    Slovakia 0 Withdrew troops: End of January 2007


    RM
     
  14. Bloody hell, thread mega-hijacked!!! I only mentioned about Jack getting a slap down Queen Street, and how shite the local rag is!!!
    All good stuff though!
     
  15. When I used to walk down Queen St in the days of National Service, most of the people WERE jack/jenny/royal or if of age had served in HM Forces. The Portsmouth Garrison [Army] also had a large presence in those days.
    More pubs per square mile than eanywhere in the world [even if it was crap beer] so fisticuffs were invariably between service people.
    The News is no worse than most parochial newspapers.
     
  16. I think you are talking utter crap,when i joined up i never expected to go to war but did during the Falkland ,i did because it was my job. I think the Service men and women today do the same for the same reason, because it is there Job, i think poeple forget that theres a price to pay for poeple to take freedom for granted,the leasst we can do is show our respect for Servicemen past and present for the exceptional cotribution they have made to those freedoms.

    There is no excuse for even questioning there committment, and dedication and the contribution they make, if some one asked me if i thought i would have died during 82 the answer would have been the same as todays heroes WE did not think of being killed we just had an expectation we would be......... respect is the very least we can show for these Honerable People
    Bren 498 HMS Alacrity 1982
     
  17. Going back to the original starter of this thread,perhaps its down to the British class system and snobbery/elitism/Im alright jackism/ignorance that still ( I think anyway) exists in this country ( and deep down exists in the heart of many Britons regardless of which particular social order they aspire to be in). Justify that bold statement? Out there beyond the main gate, most civvies look down upon servicemen (oh yes they do!!) seeing us as no more than lower social order cannon fodder. "Why should they subsidize us with everything that the US forces seem to enjoy a la RnR"? They dont care. Always been like that and always will be. Only period it hasnt was probably after two periods of mass call up when Blighty literally was fighting for its life ie periods about and immediatley after WW1 and WW2. That period produced a certain mutual respect among Britons of all social backgrounds - but it soon disappeared. Volunteer serviceman are regarded as lower class social inferiors in this country, they have been since time began......We know differently, but they dont.
     

Share This Page