Video camera database spots underage drinkers

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by Cpt_Black, May 13, 2008.

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    A camera at a supermarket is being used to spot customers who have previously been refused sale of alcohol and cigarettes.

    While this may be an easy way to spot previously refused underage people, is it another way of the 'higher powers' keeping tabs on us?
  2. It presumably has a zit counter. The more spotty an teenager's face, the less eligible he is to drink. I'm certainly glad such devices weren't around when I started drinking at school at 15 (Prefects were allowed 'out' at lunchtime, and the pub was just 10 minutes walk away) :) :) :) Happy... hic.... days!
  3. I know what you mean, it suprises me how things have changed in the last few years. I started going into pubs when I was 15 - about 7 years ago. Ok, I lived in quite a rural area, but by the time I was 19, I was getting asked for ID regularly.

    I'm now 22, and have worked in a pub since I was 18 and have seen the tightening of the laws, or rather the enforcing of them from the landlords if not the police (in my experience)

    Personally I think youngsters should be taught the correct way to behave in an adult society, i.e. limited exposure to pubs etc. which increases as the younster gets nearer to 18 - the age I think they should be allowed to drink unaccompanied.

    It hasn't done me any harm, and I consider my friends and I to be 'responsible' drinkers. We occaisionally get rather drunk (even regularly during summers!) but we do no harm. Don't get rude, abusive or make a public nuisance.
  4. I think that's the big difference with today's youth - violence. I'll admit to causing nuisance when I was younger and pissed. Being loud and probably a bit abusive and getting up to what we thought were humourous pranks which others probably found irritating and annoying. But the trend today seems to be get pissed and get in a fight using anything that comes to hand. You see it every weekend in every town and city centre. Seems to be a lot more intolerance and pent up frustration.
  5. The Demon Drink

    Oh, thou demon Drink, thou fell destroyer;
    Thou curse of society, and its greatest annoyer.
    What hast thou done to society, let me think?
    I answer thou hast caused the most of ills, thou demon Drink.

    Thou causeth the mother to neglect her child,
    Also the father to act as he were wild,
    So that he neglects his loving wife and family dear,
    By spending his earnings foolishly on whisky, rum and beer.

    And after spending his earnings foolishly he beats his wife-
    The man that promised to protect her during life-
    And so the man would if there was no drink in society,
    For seldom a man beats his wife in a state of sobriety.

    And if he does, perhaps he finds his wife fou',
    Then that causes, no doubt, a great hullaballo;
    When he finds his wife drunk he begins to frown,
    And in a fury of passion he knocks her down.

    And in that knock down she fractures her head,
    And perhaps the poor wife she is killed dead,
    Whereas, if there was no strong drink to be got,
    To be killed wouldn't have been the poor wife's lot.

    Then the unfortunate husband is arrested and cast into jail,
    And sadly his fate he does bewail;
    And he curses the hour that ever was born,
    And paces his cell up and down very forlorn.

    And when the day of his trial draws near,
    No doubt for the murdering of his wife he drops a tear,
    And he exclaims, "Oh, thou demon Drink, through thee I must die,"
    And on the scaffold he warns the people from drink to fly,

    Because whenever a father or a mother takes to drink,
    Step by step on in crime they do sink,
    Until their children loses all affection for them,
    And in justice we cannot their children condemn.

    The man that gets drunk is little else than a fool,
    And is in the habit, no doubt, of advocating for Home Rule;
    But the best Home Rule for him, as far as I can understand,
    Is the abolition of strong drink from the land.

    And the men that get drunk in general wants Home Rule;
    But such men, I rather think, should keep their heads cool,
    And try and learn more sense, I most earnestlty do pray,
    And help to get strong drink abolished without delay.

    If drink was abolished how many peaceful homes would there be,
    Just, for instance in the beautiful town of Dundee;
    then this world would be heaven, whereas it's a hell,
    An the people would have more peace in it to dwell

    Alas! strong drink makes men and women fanatics,
    And helps to fill our prisons and lunatics;
    And if there was no strong drink such cases wouldn't be,
    Which would be a very glad sight for all christians to see.

    O admit, a man may be a very good man,
    But in my opinion he cannot be a true Christian
    As long as he partakes of strong drink,
    The more that he may differently think.

    But no matter what he thinks, I say nay,
    For by taking it he helps to lead his brither astray,
    Whereas, if he didn't drink, he would help to reform society,
    And we would soon do away with all inebriety.

    Then, for the sake of society and the Church of God,
    Let each one try to abolish it at home and abroad;
    Then poverty and crime would decrease and be at a stand,
    And Christ's Kingdom would soon be established throughout the land.

    Therefore, brothers and sisters, pause and think,
    And try to abolish the foul fiend, Drink.
    Let such doctrine be taught in church and school,
    That the abolition of strong drink is the only Home Rule.
  6. The Second Head at my school let us have a few beers or glasses of wine on a Saturday night, provided we had a kebab or something to go with it. He always said it introduced kids to drinking responsibly and I think it worked - especially at a boarding school, it would be so easy to ban drinking completely and have kids go off the rails once they've left, dizzy with the excitement of it all... I've heard complaints about parents who let their kids drink at home but I think the sensible ones are pretty savvy. If you let them do it, the rebel factor goes away.
  7. Absolute bollocks, what happened to training the counter staff to make decisions, what's the impact if the counter staff then serve someone who is underage and the bsystem didn't spot them and what about false positives.

    Yet more automation of society, taking responsibility away from the individual and restricting personal freedoms.
  8. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Video evidence is an excellent tool in crimefighting, whatever its application. If the technology is available why not use it? Less corruptible than an eye witness, and less likely to be verbally/physically abused by offenders.
  9. This isn't about being used in crimefighting, it's being used to instruct the counter staff.

    Saw something the other day that suggested that 3% of video evidence was actually usable, either through quality or analytical capacity. I think it was in the Economist so I'll try to find an opportunity to have a dig around.

    The prospect of an imagery database, connected to any retailer who happens to buy or lease the kit is quite disturbing. It wouldn't be difficult to then add a record related to any payment cards used, I'm sure someone could come up with an argument that it would reduce identity related fraud...
  10. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Karma: I'd be interested to see the reference you mentioned. As someone who has used video evidence in many investigations I cannot praise it highly enough, but I imagine that its evidential value is lost due to poor continuity (i.e. not seized or handles correctly) rather than through the poor quality of the images themselves.

    Face-recognition imagery is used all over the world; I maintain that if the technology is available then it should be used, so long as its application has some useful purpose or benefit.
  11. Hey, backpacker.

    Work - the curse of the drinking classes.
  12. I heard somewhere that only about 30% of video recordings are actually used in investigations because of the amount of time it takes to go through it all. Is that true? It's something I've always wondered about...
  13. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    In cases where digital images/data, etc., is required, investigators use the "seize and sift" technique, whereby they seize everything in situ then go through it to see what is relevant to the investigation. And yes, it does take time and effort... however in cases where CCTV is available, Officers can attend the Control Room and view the relevant images and obtain a certified true copy of the images they want. Digital footage is archived for 30 days then wiped, unless the Police have specifically asked for it to be retained.
  14. Ah I seeee. Thank you :thumright:
  15. I've had a root around in the Economist website but can't track it down, the main thrust of the argument was that CCTV is now so pervasive that there isn't the manpower to either monitor live feeds or adequately recover and analyse the records.

    I think it's the latter part of your statement that is key here, the outcome is that the counter staff have a machine telling them what to do. A frequent side effect of automation is that users stop decision making, and just accept the technology and its conclusion.

    I'm interested in how long this system is intending on retaining records for, and what other checks and controls are placed around the use.

    In terms of benefit I'm unconvinced that the investment matches the actual cost of being fined for serving those underage, and that should be the commercial consideration; where is the cost benefit, and how much is it?
  16. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Karma: I understand your reservation but unless you're a 15-year old spotty teenager I cannot see why you should be too concerned... :wink:

    As far as the benefits are concerned then I assume that Budgens (the store concerned in the story) will analyse the data from the trial and see whether its implementation is commercial viable. And any investment will come from their own funds, so that will be a commercial private concern.
  17. Don't think there's any risk of being mistaken for a 15yo spotty youth. It's a principle thing, increasing automation of decision making disenfranchises the individual, removes decision making authority and capability and leads to ever increasing petty officialdom restricting the liberty of the individual because that supports the automation process.

    Possibly, although officialdom is imposing significant costs through mindless imposition of flawed guidance, cf the discussion about what is meant by Political Correctness which is occasionally interrupting the flow of ill thought through whinges in another thread.
  18. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    A tenuous assumption... :?
  19. Karma
    At the end of the day it is the store that could lose it's licence to sell alcohol. In my opinion the store is just putting yet another measure in place to protect it's licence. Of course if a sales assistant does sell to an underage person she is liable to be fined as well.
  20. Indeed, although I do recognise that I'm a much greater advocate for personal liberty and the reduction of official interference in the private lives of the individual than the vast majority.

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