USA Solves The Problem of Illegal Immigration

Discussion in 'Diamond Lil's' started by Bergen, May 19, 2007.

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  1. In 1986 during the Ronnie Raygun Presidency the US carried out a one time only immigration amnesty. Under the terms of the amnesty millions of illegal immigrants were given Green Cards and allowed to remain in the USA indefinitely and legally.

    This did not stop illegal immigration and in 2007 the number of new illegal immigrants rose to an estimated 12 to 15 million. The latest proposal from the US Government is to have another amnesty and make the illegals 'legal'. The southern border of the US is very porous and the illegals are lured across by plentiful jobs. If the latest amnesty goes ahead then it will result in a wave of additional immigration as family members join the Green Card recipients.

    It is already the case that Spanish is the second language of many US towns and cities in the southern USA and it is interesting how Spanish customs and influence are moving north of the border. In only a few generations from now it is possible that the USA will no longer be a predominantly 'white anglo-saxon' culture but will become much more Latino in nature.

    Does anyone think that an amnesty in the UK would solve any of our immigration problems???

    RM
     
  2. Bergen I am convinced that all an amnesty would achieve would be to send a message out convincing all potential illegal immigrants that this is the country to come to.
    I believe that the only way forward is for the country to remove any aid at all to those who have failed to get immigrant status at all stages. i.e. The appeal has also failed. The only assistance the government should then offer is immediate repatriation.
    Of course the liberally minded are free to set up charities to look after failed asylum seekers but no government or lottery funding should be allocated.
     
  3. Good point Bergs, Thought the goverment already did that :twisted: , come to the UK, free medical, free benefits, free housing, crime goes up, the list is endless.

    I believe that the UK, should adopt what the Aussies, Germans do with illegal immigrants. we are to PC as a country.
    I will stand by to be corrected.

    Regards
    RB
     
  4. Looks like we are not always at logger heads RB :)
     
  5. No, no and no. An amnesty for immigration is the same as no punishment for crime or giving benefits to the idle. Or in other words, this will probably happen within a few weeks.
     
  6. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    The only thing an amnesty would do is bring some fact to the current fictitional figures represented by the Government, that in itself would be a good thing as they would be forced to finance local government appropriately to support their migrant populations. It would probably do more harm than good though by legitimising the position of a lot of people who shouldn't be here.
     
  7. What this "Amnesty" does is save the Republicans arses in the forthcoming elections, also it allows the corporations who have illegally used these people off the hook..so the rich bastards can now legally pay the minimum wage to immigrant workers and now get tax write-offs or wage incentives, all the while increasing the boards dividends..... :evil:

    Last night I watched O'Really and Rivera, and to them there will be approx 80 Million immigrants from Mexico and South America over the next 5 yrs, what I want to know is where in the feck is the 330 Million US citizens spread out across America.

    One point Rivera brought up which was interesting is that successive generations of Latino speaking immigrants are actually learning English faster then the previous generations, so the language issue will stay with the majority as the older generation is assimilated by the younger generations.

    I think the two issues are seperate (the UK's problems and the US),a lot of these individuals are truly hard working, and with their limited education have tried to be contributing members, I think the right wing zealots are focusing too much on the criminal element and are swiping all of them with the same brush, and in the rush to clean house are stomping all over those that have worked their entire lives at minimum wage, the reason they can survive is because of the family unit, I am sure you see it in the UK with the Indian and Pakistani communities, they all work together to ensure the survival of the family, so one household may have up to 3 individuals bringing in an income, albeit a small wage for sure, but they all add up.

    We see this with the Lebanese communities here in Canada, they open a store, eventually make enough to bring over the rest of the family, then they franchise out and before you know it they own 2 or 3 stores and their family gets bigger, I can't begrudge them that, they provide a service and contribute to the overall tax coffers... :wink:
     
  8. One of the things that I like about RR is the different point of views that can be brought to bear on a single subject. It's very healthy.

    How about this one - my personal point of view only; immigration is good for any country and has been good for the United Kingdom. There have been successive waves of migrants that have enriched our country and without delving too far back into history it is something that has been ongoing for hundreds of years.

    Successful immigration has been [and still is] dependent on the numbers of immigrants being limited to what can successfully absorbed by the existing population. This is where the true problem lies in the UK and unfortunately politicians have allowed the country to be swamped by economic refugees that are not part of the existing social structure and because of the immense numbers of them are unlikely to be readily absorbed into our culture.

    This is why there are ghettoes forming in our major towns and cities. It is why the British people feel that they are strangers in their own country. It is why there is such enormous strain on our social fabric and on our social services.

    RM
     

  9. O! Chubby One

    Again I agree that any amnesty would only encourage further illegals into the UK. We need to sort out the genuine from the chaff for whom they should be banged up and life made fairly bare.

    The borders should be much tighter not just making statements with no action.

    Then I would like to hear from this forum, within current agreements with other nations how you intend to repatriate these illegals when you can neither:

    1. prove from which country they originated
    2. which country they were last in
    3. The selected deportation destination refuses to accept them

    These are questions I have posed many times, with different wording but to date nobody has offered any views on a solution. Even locked up in camps in the desert heat of Australia with little in the way of the good life, the residents see this as better than returning to the country of their origin

    What is to be done? sensible answers please.

    Nutty
     
  10. Unfortunately Nutty I do not have answers to these questions I suppose better brains than mine have failed to come up with an answer. Perhaps it should be made the duty of whichever country the immigrant lands in first to take the responsibility for his acceptance/rejection. France is only to happy to let illegals camp on its borders in the hope that they will cross into another country and they no longer have any responsibilities to them. Another thing which may help would be for the whole of the EU to have a common policy with regard to services provided to these unfortunates. At present many come to Britain because they believe they will get a better deal here. I do however like the Australian method.
    As Bergen states immigration has been good for this country, I agree with him to a point however in the past we did not encounter immigration in the same numbers as today, also the help given by government was extremely small, Most immigrants were taken care of by others from their own religious/ethnic background who were established here already.
     
  11. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    I don't agree, immigration can only be good for a country when used to fill skill shortages, this is the argument the Government has in fact used to justify it. Our current wave of East European (and don't forget the Portuguese) immigrants is being used to fill a labour shortage! The only people this helps is the treasury. Our Chancellor has used two directly linked methods to control our economy, inflation and wages, it is economics for dummies and has worked so far only because of the immigrants, by keeping wages disproportionately low in the labour sector it is difficult to justify wage rises in the Public and general skill sectors. At a time of global wealth he should have concentrated at least some effort in developing our engineering, construction and scientific sectors where there are real and tangible products plus skills, which can be exported and have some bearing on world markets. Instead he chose to develop an industry (if you can call it that) of finance, an industry which could at the drop of a hat divert its base to any one of a number of countries offering better tax and development opportunities, he has in short left the country open to blackmail, short sighted doesn't even come close to it!........... anyway back to immigration..............
     
  12. Chief
    We do not have a labour shortage in the UK. What we have is a situation where it is more profitable to be on social security than to work for the minimum wage. As the government has control over both these factors, surely they should be doing something to remedy the problem.
     
  13. I believe the "Global Economy" needs to be brought into line, as long as countries continue to subsidize their farmers which in turn hurt the farmers from the 3rd world countries you are always going to get migrations, minimum wage in the US is 1000% better then maximum wage in Mexico.

    The higher paying jobs (in NA) are disappearing (heading to South East Asia and Mexico and China) where the pay is a whole lot less, but yet those people from those countries see a better lifestyle in the Western countries, especially where there is assistance provided (free health and education), a double edged sword...

    How do you stop it....you insist through the Global Community that these countries upgrade their labour laws and start to provide for their own workers the same benefits that we give our workers (Workers Comp, Pogey/dole etc), if the Mexicans could stay in Mexico I would be willing to bet they would stay, no one really wants to leave their "homeland", and I am sure it's the same for the individuals leaving their Eastern European countries for your country, do they really want to come here....(to the UK).

    When the cold war ended and the eastern bloc countries lost their cash cow (Moscow) it displaced a huge amount of people who used to rely on totally free (communist) services...there are rumblings in the former Soviet Republic because the great capitalistic dream has only benefited a few..those former satellites are a mess as far as economies go...

    The only way you could probably stop this is at the point of exit from country of origin..The EU will probably have to cooperate and create a unified something or other to monitor migrations...
     
  14. Asylum seekers are supposed to seek refuge in the first safe country they arrive in, not travel half a continent like many of them do, to get to Britain. Many of the asylum seekers and illegal immigrants that are residing in Britain had been sat around in France, waiting for the opportunity to get into Britain undetected. It is the responsibility of the French to deal with them but they allow it go on as they know that the migrants will soon be our problem, not theirs.
    I don't know how much it costs to shelter and feed, supervise and process those illegals and asylum seekers that we do detect, but I believe we should charge the French to recover those costs. We should also pack them off onto a train and send them back to France and kick them out at the first stop the other side of the chunnel. If the French refuse to pay up or accept responsibilty for those they allowed to enter our country in the first place, we should use our veto whenever the French propose anything political within the EU. That should catch their attention.

    As for legal migrants, I think there have been too many too quickly. Public services in many towns and cities are clearly suffering because of this. Our own citizens are struggling to get registered with GPs and dentists yet the newcomers are able to, and they are also entitled to the same services as our people despite having paid nothing into the system.
     
  15. My statement about immigration being good for the country is a long-term view taken over a few centuries. It is a great contributer to what makes us British. Where it fails is in the recent economic migrations where low-paid and relatively unskilled workers are allowed into the country and become a net drain on social resources. Many countries, especially the USA encourage migrant workers to fill specific skill shortages. In the case of engineers a valid PhD will invariably lead to a quick Green Card. On my present project there are 3 highly skilled and very intelligent 'number-crunchers'. Two are Chinese and one is Indian. All three have PhD's and are very valuable to the project and ultimately to the USA and it's general economy.

    I think that it is this approach to immigration that you are referring to??

    RM
     
  16. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Slim, we do have a labour shortage, it's even more serious than not having people to the work, people won't do the work! As you rightly say it's at least partly the fault of the Social State now making it more profitable to be on the dole than picking strawberries, we've even gone past the stage where some were more than happy to do both!!!

    AfterSSE your points are valid, but believe me this government have gone out of its way to encourage economic migrants for its own purpose, to control the economy, not for the benefit of the country or the migrants but purely as an easy way of controlling the economy, it's a short term solution to a long term problem.

    I don't blame the Polish, Lithuanians, Portuguese or any of the others, I actually respect them a lot for getting off their arses and doing something for themselves and their families, they are hard working people and have seized an opportunity, had I been in their position I would have done the same. The problem is they draw on the economy and put little back in, often staying for between 2 and 5 years returning home with their savings, whilst here they require housing, medical care and all the other services any decent society provides its citizens. When they are "illegal" they cannot be accounted for by Central Government so the Local Governments do not receive adequate funding and the local citizens are the ones who lose out, you can understand why they feel aggrieved.
     
  17. Could it be that we have a shortage in many skilled positions because youngsters see the degree courses needed as too difficult. In the rush to get all and sundry qualified to degree level our political masters seem to have gone for quantity of degree and not quality. This is not happenning in either India or China. Consequently we have a skills shortage which is currently been filled by immigrants,
    I do not believe that all the Chinese nationals working in Nail bars and Chinese medicine shops have degrees in nuclear physics though.
     
  18. One other figure to consider is the latest demographics for couples having children..gone are the days of families having 3 or more children, so as the population ages (us old farts), there is nobody to pick up the slack, so you need to allow immigration to offset this. The only way around that is for the Government to start giving out incentives to young families to encourage them to have children and lots of em...at one time (they may still do it, not sure) but Quebec used to give out a payment of $3,000 per child...for a young family starting out and only one bread winner, this actually helped kickstart their ability to start a family...

    Gone are the days of a single worker in the family unit, to survive in today's world or if you want all of the toy's and amenities, then both parents are turning to full time work if they can get it, this allows them no time to raise a family properly (what do you mean properly...I know not PC right), which does sort of tie it in with the recent discussions of our youth today...

    There are a lot of constants involved in this whole problem, so many threads touch upon why these problems exist, and I think they are all related...

    The US have actually modeled their new act along the Canadian lines in regards to the "merit system" we have been using this for a few years, lately it doesn't seem like it (half of Jamaica is in Toronto illegally)... :wink:
     
  19. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Exactly, and as a short term solution it can't be faulted, it carries mutual benefits. Then address the crux of the problem, why are there no Phd qualified Mathematicians capable of doing what is I suspect well paid work within our own populus? Another problem this government is failing to address despite the "Education, education education" statement of our thank the Lord, soon to be ex-Prime Minister.
     
  20. janner

    janner War Hero Book Reviewer

    In some cases people fly into the UK and destroy their passports etc en route. Why can't the airlines take possession of the necessary documents on boarding and then hand them directly to immigration on landing for them to be reclaimed, this would certainly help with a small number of the illegals
     

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