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Smudge_3/06 said:
Actually in my experience the RNR officers are the canniest officers you will ever find. It's the URNUs who recon they're God's gift to everything, especially the ones who take their AIBs and go into the Andy Miller.

Well that's a lie and a half! Canny? How do you define canny? There are some very successful businessmen who are RNR, and there are some very capable ex-RN types who are RNR, and there are some dross who are RNR but their "canniness" has to do with their own personality, not where they came from. And I know of no "URNUs" (by which I assume you mean URNU students) who genuinely think (or is that "recon"?) they are God's gift to anyone or anything. HOWEVER, if I was a self confident URNU Mid, 20 years old and having a great time in a fun organisation, the temptation to take the piss out of bitter, middle aged RNR types with chips on their shoulders would be unbearable. In fact .... it was!

Smudge_3/06 said:
There are a few ******** RNR but I bet you they'll be ex-RN, most often than not without having ever been ratings. RNR personnell class themselves as civvies and never take themselves too seriously, unlike the snottys who recon that their lollipops mean summat.

Well, that's a great argument. So you can only be a good (or "canny") RNR person by classing yourself as a civilian and not taking yourself seriously? Apart from the fact that you have single handedly defined URNU types there, the fact that you hold this attitude beggars belief! In a modern reserve force, ably assisting (and contributing to) overstretched Armed Forces fighting major wars around the globe, any RNR person who thinks like this should be shot for treason, and his worthless ashes scattered over the graves of the brave service personnel who have given their lives for their country rather than "classed themselves as civvies" and larked about in RTCs getting 1/4 of a days pay for nothing more than drinking in rig once a week. You do a huge disservice to the professional and serious RNR officers and ratings out there, and am prepared to bet that behind your back, there's one "******** RNR" they all talk about....

Smudge_3/06 said:
And can I remind you that its the RNR who end up as teaboys for the regulars when on ORT on REAL ******* SHIPS. Not URNU who swan around getting loads of sea time on the P2000s with no-one else to point out that the URNU aren't full timers as well.

If I ever met you, Smudger, I wouldn't let you wet the tea, as your laugh-a-minute not taking yourself too seriously civvie canniness would probably lead to you electrocuting yourself on the Jackson boiler. Every RNR I've met doing ORT on REAL ******* SHIPS has been a real asset - hard working, keen and making up in genuine interest and effort what they lack in experience. Clearly, however, I've never met you, but when we do cross path, your RNR oppo can come to the Bridge/Ops room/sweep deck for some training and you can **** off to the wardroom pantry and take lessons in beverage preparation from the CPO Steward.

As for your last point, many previous posters have made the point very eloquently, as have I, that URNUs are not the RNR. They don't claim to be so, they don't duplicate RNR training, they aren't funded by DMRes, and have a completely different role, ethos and administration setup. If you want sea time, apply for it. No P2000 with a gapped billet on a deployment will ever turn down an RNR officer for sea experience (I know half a dozen in the last 2 years, sent via an MCM squadron), and if anyone does ever let you near the kettle, you'll find out that everyone already knows the URNU aren't full timers - no-one needs to point it out. Least of all you, civvie japester that you are.
Look mate, yes I generalised URNU mids and they can be canny too. I'm sorry. But that's just the impression I got from a lot of them, and nothing you can say will change that.

And what I definately did was wrong in aiding to the trend on this forum of comparing the RNR and the URNU. Yes they do different jobs, and yes they both fulfill the jobs the do.

But When you get at us for calling ourselves civvies, can you really blame us? We only spend less that 2% of our average week in the navy. However we're proud of that two percent, we're proud of those two weeks a year, we're proud of the 15% of maritime reserves that are currently functional, we're proud of the 75% of the Naval Service during WWII that were reservists, and we're proud of the job we do and the role we have.

There's a difference between not taking ourselves seriously and not taking our jobs seriously. Would you rather we go on ships and believe that we're just as good as RN? Thought not. We never will be as good as the regulars, we don't have the experience or training. But we try our upmost best, and realise that we sometimes have to try our upmost best. But it's who we are, and we're proud.
Smudge - although I respect your right to state your opinion about your personal contribution to the wonderful work done by the RNR over the years (which was never in doubt), my thrust was to counter your assertion that URNUs swan around and think they're God's gift, whereas RNR on "REAL ... SHIPS" (your words) are treated like rubbish. I was curious where you got this impression, as it is contrary to all the RNR seatime I have ever seen, and the opposite to my experience with URNU Mids, who are (by and large) keen and pretty humble on board Pusser's greys.

However, I have since found out you are only 16, and can therefore have minimal (if any) first hand idea what goes on in ships or URNUs. Irrespective of the whole "taking yourself seriously" topic, may I suggest that rather than listening to the biased rants of others (the only possible way you could form that sort of opinion) you wait a bit, at least until you have seen both RN and URNUs in operation yourself, and then revisit your opinions. I think (hope) you'll be pleasantly surprised. Good luck with the RNR though (honestly!).
As an Ex-URNU, now full-timer myself, I've enjoyed reading this string - all good banter; however, it is very sad to say that the URNUs won't be around for very much longer (if the current round of savings measures are anything to go by). I hope it's just a nasty rumour, but I fear they are destined to go. At £1M each/yr to run (last time I checked), the MoD would be saving a lot of money - and actually going on the current recruitment figures, not losing out on a great deal. These 'Captains of industry' coming out of Uni, are fewer and further between - more and more are destined to end up Captaining a McDonalds chip-fryer rather than any influential business/industry and be of any use to the MoD, so I think the MoD is looking to cut its losses!
This completely goes against what JDA has said - I think your living a pipe-dream saying that 50% have realised the mission statement - rubbish!
The problem for the MOD is that whenever asked who the current Captains of Industry with URNU experience are, they tend to go very quiet indeed. The loss of 14 hulls would be devastating politically and represent in itself a 15% cut to RN strength.

Although the ability to 'fly the flag' in smaller UK and European ports would be lost with the demise of the URNUs, I think you are in the wrong game, let alone the wrong ball-park when it comes to a cuts of 15% - where on earth did you get that from!!!

Surely the MoD should be concentrating on supporting the Front Line and not worrying about the wasters who, it could be argued suck the life-blood from the Fleet and provide very little in return!

Also, the MoD is looking to cut the Navy by nearly 50% by 2010, so gues who's getting the chop first!! (not me!) :twisted:

But wouldn't the aspect of giving RNR personnell some sea-sense with the P2000s be worthwhile? Fair point about seamanship which is what I had in mind. But the experience of living at sea/pilotage is something, I think, which would be valuable not only for recruiting and retention (due to the interest it would add to RNR training) but because it is absurd for personnel in a Naval service to not be at sea for years on end - regardless of whether their branch requires it or not. Such sea-time would encourage a feeling of belonging to the Navy and help retention.
The RNR has had access to URNU hulls for quite some time, but rarely makes use of it for many good reasons. The URNU has often struggled at times to fill all available berths onboard - I know of a number of weekends where 3 units were trawled to get 8 berths filled.

Sadly scrapping 14 P2000's is a nigh on 15% cut to Commissioned hull numbers - by my reckoning we have 88 'HMS' vessels (plus about 20 RFA's). These are 3 CVS, 1 LPH, 2 LPD, 8 DDG, 17 FFG, 16 MCMV, 5 Survey, 4 SSBN, 9 SSN, 3 OPV, 1 OPV(H), 16 P2000 and 2 smaller Gib squadron boats and err thats it. Lose the 14 URNU P2000's and thats a 15% reduction in HMS hulls in the RN.
You're clearly living on a different planet - don't believe everything you read in the news, and as for the numbers of hulls, where did you get that from - the Broadsheet!!!!! Oh, and numbers in the RN are based on the Trained Strength! Therefore, the students of the URNU hardly count!!!! Cutting them would only mean losing hulls, the crew would just be sent somewhere else!! The MoD would be far better sending half of them to Dartmouth so we actually have some decently trained Warfare Officers in the Fleet, rather than pandering to the whims of a bunch of students, most of which are only in it for the money and drinking opportunities and have no intention whatsoever of joining up.
Unless you are one of those who are in it for the drinking and the money and have virtually every intention of joining up.
However, if URNU were like the OTCs used to be and a way of bypassing even a bit of Dartmouth (albeit we'd actually need to spend some time there for a real chance of passing) then there might be a little more impetus on the part of some of the students to join up without having to go in as UCE, not that I'm one of them.
Just my tuppence for now...

You're clearly living on a different planet - don't believe everything you read in the news, and as for the numbers of hulls, where did you get that from - the Broadsheet!!!!! "

Well PP as you are clearly so more enlightened than myself, perhaps you could enlighten me as which non RFA hulls are missing from my list? The only thing that could differ is the number of seagoing hulls at different readiness states, but thats not something best discussed here. I am well aware of the current state of play for the fleet and not just the PR spin related bull that circulates.

As for manning - I've never suggested the URNU were trained strength. In my book they're little more than glorified cadets. I suggest your argument is irrelevant to my point that paying off PBS1 would be a 15% cut to the total number of commisioned warships in the RN.
Every now and then someone in the RNR moans about the P2000s being taken off them in late-80s, but forget why they went in the 1st place - because the RNR Divisions didn't use them except when the South Coast ones wanted a booze cruise to France (anyone from HMS SUSSEX care to contradict me there?). The then CINCNAVHOME saw this and quite rightly allocated them to people who would use them, and appreciate them. If you read the previous posts on this exact thread, you'll see all the reasons and hear all the arguments.

By the way, URNUs do NOT cost £1m a year to run each, they cost £1m a year to run IN TOTAL. This is mainly cadet and TO wages (max £500k), T&S (about £14k each) and rental charges for those offices not already on MoD land. The 14 P2000s cost another £1m a year, mainly in maintenance (they require an annual Slip by law - they're Lloyds registered). So that's £2 million pounds in total. A tiny tiny drop in the ocean, for a HUGE return in goodwill, profile, long-term PR and invaluable experience for future COs (there are only 3 non-URNU commands for Lieutenants left in the entire RN).

We've all heard rumours about 7 closing, or 2 opening, or 14 remaining with a jiggle of hulls (a Dartmouth Squadron has been mooted). But no decision has been made, the Navy Board have for the last few years always refused to cut URNUs (2 or 3 are put up for "savings measure" every STP/EP round, but Admirals love them) and I'd lay money on the fact that they won't cut any this time either.

As elsewhere on this site, there's no point dripping about things that have yet to be decided.

PS Future "Captains of Industry"? Apart from Aberdeen URNU, which was founded in the 1960s, all the others were formed in the late 1980s, early 1990s, so unless you know ANY uber-successful high profile businessmen (who aren't Russian) in their mis to late 30s, I'd say it was a bit premature to judge. I can, however, think of BBC presenters, small businessmen, headmasters and dozens of City high fliers who are ex-URNU, and when the alumni from Oxford and Cambridge URNU become old enough (they were last 2 founded, in 1995), you'll be amazed.

Unlike the RNR (in need of constant reorganisation as it struggles for a relevant role), if the URNU aint broke, don't cut it.
"Unlike the RNR (in need of constant reorganisation as it struggles for a relevant role), "

Cheap shot - the RNR is adapting to fill the roles required of it and has been active in support of every major RN operation for the past 15 years or so. Scrapping MCM10 was a big choice and has paid major dividends.

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