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URNUs

Midshipmen, like other subordinate officers are appointed, not commissioned. Commissions are only given out at substantive SLt rank and above. Ref BR 8373.
 
yeo_yeo said:
So my original question stands, are they held to the same standards and training levels as that of the RNR?

They are officially List 7 RNR and have their own standards and training requirements. They can transfer to List 3 RNR as officers upon passing AIB and provided they have satisfactory service in the URNU, so it is not automatic.
 
yeo_yeo said:
Scud said:
Tis not honorary any more - they're now Mid RNR with their branch down as URNU.

So then they are comissioned.

Hammockhead is correct - no Midshipmen (RN or RNR) is commissioned until promotion to Sub Lieutenant, hence URNU snotters are not commissioned, and neither is a 19 year old regular YO.

yeo_yeo said:
So my original question stands, are they held to the same standards and training levels as that of the RNR?.

Going back to your question yeo_yeo, yes I think they are, if not more so. As URNUs come under BRNC Dartmouth, which has recently rediscovered the notion of "standards", and are all commanded by regular RN Lts keen to impress and get promoted (unlike the old days of "thank you" drives for nice but passed over Lt Cdrs) with regular oversight by senior officers, then you would struggle to find a bunch of keener, switched on and impressive young people. As for "training levels of the RNR", URNUs do a very different job, with no war service liability so there is not much commonality, but all follow a strict 3 year syllabus of Dartmouth-written instruction. More details on the URNU page of the stupidly trendy and difficult to use RN website:

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.2195

One final point...

its my understanding that Naval officers are not commissioned at all. They are "appointed"

Rincewind

Sorry Rincewind shippers - you're wrong (and right!). You have got the mutually exclusive terms "drafting" (ratings xmt WOs) and "appointing" (officers + WOs) which deal with which job you do when, mixed up with the terms for being a given the honour of a job in HM Forces. This is "commisioned" (RN and RNR officers of SLts and above) and "warranted" (WO1s and Midshipmen). Hence the term CW Candidate standing for "Commission or Warrant" candidate, depending on age...
 
fangita said:
Sorry Rincewind shippers - you're wrong (and right!). You have got the mutually exclusive terms "drafting" (ratings xmt WOs) and "appointing" (officers + WOs) which deal with which job you do when, mixed up with the terms for being a given the honour of a job in HM Forces. This is "commisioned" (RN and RNR officers of SLts and above) and "warranted" (WO1s and Midshipmen). Hence the term CW Candidate standing for "Commission or Warrant" candidate, depending on age...

All correct, except midshipmen and other subordinate officers are not warranted, but are appointed by order.

The following from very old KR&AIs, the only ones I could find online:

(following lists of commissioned and warrant ranks)

3. Officers appointed by Orders.- Officers shall be promoted or nominated to all other ranks by order of the Admiralty, or, in the case of Midshipmen and Clerks, by order of their Captains. Except as specified in footnote, commissions will not be issued to officers on promotion to such ranks, but their promotion will be notified to them by the Admiralty, and published in the " London Gazette." See 228 (Appointment of other Officers).

In the RNR this is the procedure that is still followed for acting sub-lieutenants. In the RN, the acting subbie rank has been abolished since about 1993, and I believe (though I am not sure) that subbies are now treated as having been commissioned on entry to Dartmouth, but they are only given their commissioning scrolls if and when they reach the trained strength, and this is notified in the Gazette. The commission scrolls are backdated to the date they entered Dartmouth.
 
Sorry Rincewind shippers - you're wrong (and right!). You have got the mutually exclusive terms "drafting" (ratings xmt WOs) and "appointing" (officers + WOs) which deal with which job you do when, mixed up with the terms for being a given the honour of a job in HM Forces. This is "commisioned" (RN and RNR officers of SLts and above) and "warranted" (WO1s and Midshipmen). Hence the term CW Candidate standing for "Commission or Warrant" candidate, depending on age

The 'Warrant' part of the CW designation referred to rating candidates applying for the pre-1950 (officer) rank of Warrant Officer. When this rank was abolished, the 'CW' designation remained.
 
Aha! It all makes sense now - the pre-1950s rank being with a single half stripe, am I correct? But surely modern WOs have a "warrant" as well? It's been a while since I've met one!
 
Jim30 said:
Lets see, ex URNU, ex URNU TO and RNR now. I think I'm entitled to state my opinion on the URNU.

In one URNU I know, of 50 students on the books, maybe 20 attended on a good night. Meanwhile some would attend for deployment or the fun stuff. Most weren't particularly good, despite endless efforts to try and get them to the right standard. They were a mess, more concerned with beer than they were with basic skills. Deployment was a case of "alongside ASAP then lets do a run ashore". Drill nights were much the same. As for parades, don't make me laugh. They turned up, couldnt march, looked gash and were frankly a waste of space.

Of the 750 students, I'd suggest maybe 400 are regular attenders, of whom maybe 100 might join the RN. The rest are along for a jolly. Personally I'd scrap the pay element and see how many we keep.

The URNU scheme is a waste of resources in its current form. Either turn it into a NROTC or scrap it completely. At the moment though I am very hacked off at seeing the little scrotes getting "RNR" on their ID card. They have no idea how to act like an officer (if only because the BRNC driven syllabus doesn't really cover it). They are fundamentally cadets, their staff cannot be mobilised and at the end of the day, to call that bunch of scruffs "RNR" is an insult to the REAL RNR who for the most part are well trained individuals who have a very real liability to go to deployments (as I've done).

Why don't you grow up. Quite frankly you could be talking about a lot of RNR officers in that statement of not knowing how to act as officers, last time I looked at the figures, the RNR had a lot less regular attenders than the URNU. And I understand that the RNR has a massive recruitment problem. A lot of the RNR take RN life too seriously to the point that they think they're special because they put on a uniform once a week and forget the fact they they are there as public servants. Of course there are notible exceptions and when they are called up and serve, whilst I don't believe they are as much value as someone who does the job on a daily basis, some have been exceptional individuals. Personally, I think the resources which are plowed into the RNR so they can have their jollies and then quit when they get called up are a waste of money. And as for URNU students not joining up, that's the point isn't it- it isn't a recruiting organisation for the RN just like the RNR isn't. I certainly think that the RNR could be a lot better structured, particularly when they take away full time RN personelle who, from my experience, regard the opportunity as a bit of a doss and an opportunity to play sport for the majority of their time. Certainly, the vast expense of the RNR organisation costs could be better used on the front-line. As previously argued, the URNU is very good at flying the flag (not saying the RNR isn't, but pound for pound it's certainly less) and, for someone who claims to be so experienced in URNU, I think you've clearly missed the mission statement. In real terms, what is the point of teaching someone to navigate- it's hardly going to be a life skill outside the navy and if someone goes into the navy post URNU, they get it taught again from people who know what there talking about (some TOs knowledge isn't exactly brilliant). However, what the URNU teaches you is a lot more than technical skills, life skills which the student can take away from them into civilian or military life. Don't forget, the navy is service to british citizens and I, for one, believe that the URNU organisation, whilst not perfect, provides tax payers with excellent value for money- I understand from one unit that over 50% of their alumni are in the RN, fortunately, the other 50% actually fulfilled the mission statement.
 
URNUs & R.N.R RTC

As an Ex-URNU member and now Captain (Master Mariner) in the Merchant Navy, I feel somewhat qualified to comment here. In my time with the URNU (Liverpool), I would say that the organisation has a very professional attitude, along with the fun side to it, and fulfills a number of important functions very well; including P.R., giving Lt's a drive, recruitment and opinion forming, along with Navigational training.

On leaving the URNU (and qualifying as a Navigating Officer in the MN)after 4 years, I went to the local RNR Training Centre and started their training program as a keen RNR Officer recruit.

I was mightily dissapointed by the standard of the training (and the people) at this unit to the extent that I took it no further - along with another MN Officer. It was impossible for them even to get an AIB date together in less than a year. The URNU was much more proffesionally run and organised and if the RNR was organised in a simalar way with regular RN C.O.s then it would be a much more effective organisation - in my view.

There are a significant number of experienced and keen MN Officers who are put off by the unproffesional attitude at RNR Training Centres.

I would heartily recommend any keen, intelligent Student to an URNU as an excellent way of finding out about the Services, themselves, developing their confidence and having a really good time at University.

I think that in the main, the RNR Officers that I have met were RN "Wannabees" as opposed to the URNU Mids who had potential to really go places, whether in the RN or not.

I am sure there are excellent RNR Officers out there, who do a great job, but I feel they are overshadowed by the large number of "Hangers On" who haven't a clue. The Junior rates were another story though and most that I met were pretty good.

Happy Sailing :lol:
 
from my time in URNU, not a chance. From a few legal issues that occurred, even when in uniform they are not Subject to the NDA and are not commissioned. Remember they have (mostly) not sat the AIB and have not done dartmouth so they are not officers.

As far as standards of training are (were) concerned, the URNU's are pretty strong at navigation and an experienced Mid has few problems with the navigation requirements upto MM/PP NO.

As far as anything else is concerned, unless the syllabus has changed there is little leadership training, marching etc.

As a comparator with the training of the RNR Officers, lets face it there are good individuals in both, and wasters in both. Do they train to the same standards? - they do different things, but the URNU is designed as a recruiting tool, and to ensure that some future Captain's of industry etc remember the Navy with fondness. Bit of a PR tool as well. THe RNR is designed to suplement the operational Navy.
 
The crucial difference between the regular RN lts/lt-cdrs who are appointed to be URNU COs and the regular RN lts/lt-cdrs who are appointed to be RNSOs/Support managers in URNU units is that the former are bright young things on the way up and the latter are passed-over old guys on the way out!

Not sure that the RNR has any influence over how long it takes to get an AIB date. Mine took 9 months - do the regulars get their quicker?
 
letthecatoutofthebag said:
A few points about URNUs and URNU Midshipmen:

1. URNU Mids are subject to the NDA when wearing uniform and engaged on URNU business; they are subject to all the rules and regulations that RN and RNR personnel are. That said, it would be difficult if not impossible to troop a Mid. Should an UNRU Mid make a significant breach of the NDA (or indeed the Code of Social Conduct) they would probably be asked to leave their Unit. If the offence was also an offence against Civil Law - or was something the SIB would want to know about - I would imagine the civilian police would get involved.

2. Regardless of what people think, the UNRU is NOT R NOT a recruiting organisation. I know a number of recent former UNRU COs and each and every one stresses this to everyone they meet. It is true that a large number of URNU Students do go through BRNC but they are not forced into this and they do not get lectured about careers. The OTC (and until recently the UAS) are recruiting organisations and almost force their cadets to join the Army or TA. However, URNUs tend to get a greater pecentage of their students joining the RN or RNR and it almost appears that by not forcing the possibility of a future career in the Andrew they do a better job of recruiting that the other university service organisations.

3. URNUs do cover leadership and some NMT. They are limited by their resources and H&S and can not do PLTs but they do have a leadership programme (based on BRNC's syllabus) and conduct a number of classroom based leadership exercises not disimilar to those conducted at the AIB. URNU Mids don't really need to know too much marching and drill - provided they can stand at attention and salute properly. Any more is a bit pointless and detracts from the overall aims of the URNU. That said, most if not all URNUs, take part in some form of remembrance parade and do themselves proud.

There does appear to be a bit of bitterness between some RNR personnel and the URNU organisation and vice versa. This is all a bit pointless as we all should be working for the same ultimate aim. The RNR has its role and the URNU has its own different aims and objectives. The two can complement each other and this should become greater following 2SLs Regional Coherency study. No organisation is perfect and we should all stop sniping at each other over some perceived petty jealousies.

Good points, except they can do PLTs etc., just need to be risk assessed- recent ones I've known my local unit doing include swinging the ship around only using ropes and some imaginatory things involving a various array of tubes and 'mines' etc. was all very hilarious to watch.
 
jackdanielsaddict said:
Why don't you grow up. Quite frankly you could be talking about a lot of RNR officers in that statement of not knowing how to act as officers, last time I looked at the figures, the RNR had a lot less regular attenders than the URNU. And I understand that the RNR has a massive recruitment problem. A lot of the RNR take RN life too seriously to the point that they think they're special because they put on a uniform once a week and forget the fact they they are there as public servants. Of course there are notible exceptions and when they are called up and serve, whilst I don't believe they are as much value as someone who does the job on a daily basis, some have been exceptional individuals. Personally, I think the resources which are plowed into the RNR so they can have their jollies and then quit when they get called up are a waste of money.

Actually in my experience the RNR officers are the canniest officers you will ever find. It's the URNUs who recon they're God's gift to everything, especially the ones who take their AIBs and go into the Andy Miller.

There are a few ******** RNR but I bet you they'll be ex-RN, most often than not without having ever been ratings. RNR personnell class themselves as civvies and never take themselves too seriously, unlike the snottys who recon that their lollipops mean summat.

And can I remind you that its the RNR who end up as teaboys for the regulars when on ORT on REAL ******* SHIPS. Not URNU who swan around getting loads of sea time on the P2000s with no-one else to point out that the URNU aren't full timers as well.
 
Instead of everyone throwing toys out of prams, yes you get some URNU students who think they are gods gift - but they are only 18-21 years old, and what 18-21 year old student doesnt think they are great, especially when they get paid to go away and get pissed. And sometimes they do actually prove that they are quite good. Some of the pilotages that are undertaken would be fun for a PPNO. Some URNU students are good at what they do, within the limits of their training, some are crap. At the same time there are some good RNR officers, professional, diligent and self effacing, and there are some complete tossers - who seem to think that they know more about the andrew than the regulars, and what is worse are crap at their professional duties. I have encountered many in my time - quite a few on JMC's who seem to view 2 weeks "work" as an excuse to piss about and cause mayhem, leaving the regulars to pick up the pieces.

At the end of the day the RNR and URNU have completely different aims - there is no point in trying to compare them. They both serve a function, just the functions are different!
 

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