UK/Argentina

[Deleted 7]

PROOF of how far Argentina and Britain have come since the dark spring of 1982 was evidenced by a joint act of remembrance in the port of Ushuaia at the southernmost tip of the Americas.

Sailors from ice survey ship HMS Endurance joined Argentine counterparts in a moving ceremony honouring the dead of both sides from the Falklands conflict.

Not since the previous Endurance sailed into the port in Tierra del Fuego in January 1982 has a Senior Service vessel berthed in Ushuaia (Endurance remains the only RN ship to have visited Argentina after 1982).

In the Square Islas Malvinas and in front of a modernist memorial depicting the islands the two nations fought over, British and Argentine servicemen and women stood side-by-side as Endurance’s CO Capt Nick Lambert laid a wreath with an inscription in Spanish: From HMS Endurance to the fallen in the South Atlantic.

Britain and Argentina have come a long way since 1982, but there remains a long way to go.

Many Argentinians still lay claim to the ‘Malvinas’ – a few veterans and locals protested over Endurance’s visit to Uchuaia – just as most Falklanders remain staunchly British.

But as most sailors will tell you, the enemy is the sea, or as Rear Admiral Guillermo Estevez, CO of the Austral Naval Base, described the memorial service “military honouring militaryâ€.

Capt Lambert told the Buenos Aires Herald: “We hope this will be the beginning of a very good relationship between Argentines and Britons.â€

Endurance’s chaplain Steve Parselle added: “As serving sailors it’s a sombre privilege to pay our respects to all those who lost their lives in 1982.â€

Argentine survivors of the 1982 war were divided over Endurance’s visit and the joint ceremony. But local veteran Carlos Bonetti sound a conciliatory note.

“The ceremony is a benchmark in the understanding of both peoples,†he declared, urging the countries to settle their differences over the islands amicably.

Away from the shadows of 1982, Endurance has completed her first spell conducting scientific experiments around Antarctica and is now carrying out a second spell of survey work.

Ushuaia is the departure point for many of the increasingly-popular Antarctic surveys which the Red Plum’s research and chart work assists.

The crux of the 2005-06 deployment has to been to study the effects of global warming on the polar region, as well as helping British Antarctic Survey scientists to monitor the seal population of South Georgia.

Link here

 

[Passed-over_Loggie]

They will wait their time. Another 10 years and they will find an open window. When CLYDE's in UPKEEP and 1435 Flight has been downgraded/disbanded, they will choose their moment. Benny is always expendable to a politician.

PoL

 

[jesse650]

we will eventually have to go again. Argentina's political system will (prob) roll round to it and we will be in the same situation we were in when I were knee high, history runs in circles.......b******ks :x

 

[andym]

They will wait till they get a graduate from the S.Hussain College of Lunacy and Intended Domination of The S.Atlantic bucking for Presidential election looking for elusive votes and realise that another invasion will suit their nefarious needs in getting them.Due to our caring PC knobheads in the Hall of White, our Armed Forces will consist of SCC and CCF and 3 Troops of Brownies with Advanced Extreme Cookery Badges,so it will be a walk in the park for Miguel and Jose to annexe the FI's.By the time we get World Opinion on our sides(cos they found massive Oil and Black Pudding deposits there it will be too late!!!!!)Annexe Buenos Aires before its too late!!!!!!

Maybe this time they will accept my offer of service!

 

[Lingyai]

I was in Buenas Aires, Tierra del fuego and Ushuaia last year for a couple of weeks, most godforsaken windy barren land I have seen since... well, Scotland really. Yeah thats what it was, Scotland but with spanish language.
Anyway, the people there were very friendly towards me (maybe cos they needed me to d a job)? and I even had 2 Falklands vets from their side on the same job as me. I think most people on the ground take war for what it is, after all, the forces are just a group who are there to rectify the fcuk ups of the politicos.They are all the same really, just different flags. I felt as bad looking at the "heroes of the malvinas" memorials as i would looking at ours.
After all is said and done, would we fight for it again?
And would we have the fleet to do it?
Would Bliar lead us as Maggie did?

 

[chockhead819]

From Mercopress, Tuesday, 16 May


Argentina’s behaviour “nasty, unpleasant and irresponsibleâ€

“Clearly when any large country tries to bully and subjugate a smaller country it should be a matter of concern for everybody. It’s a matter of practical concern for us that the Argentines would try to destroy the Falklands’ economy".

Cllr. Mike Summers

"They’ve said many times in the past that that’s not their intention, yet it is clear from this sort of proposal that is exactly their intention.â€

The speaker was Falkland Islands Government spokesman, Councillor Mike Summers, on being asked by Falklands Radio for his reaction to recent statements reportedly made by Gerardo Nieto, Argentina’s Fisheries and Aquaculture Under Secretary (Mercopress, 15th May). Councillor Summers went on to describe the current Argentinean government’s behaviour towards the Falklands fishery as “nasty, unpleasant and irresponsibleâ€.

Nieto’s proposals appear to suggest that fishing companies operating, under licence, within Falkland Islands waters should be subject to sanctions, if they did not also have licences issued by Argentina. He is quoted as saying in an interview in the magazine Pesca and Puertos that such companies would have to be regarded as “illegally fishing in Argentine jurisdiction watersâ€

Describing this kind of proposal as “nothing newâ€, Councillor Summers said that it was not clear to him exactly what the Argentinean government was planning to do or how far advanced they might be with the process of trying to issue such sanctions. He suspected that the process was not very far advanced, but concluded that “we have to wait and see.â€

Asked whether vessels licensed to fish in the Falklands zone should avoid getting too close to the boundaries with the Argentine zone, Cllr. Summers said that he thought it unnecessary as the Falklands zone and its boundaries with the Argentine zone were clearly delineated. On the other hand, after the recent case of arrest of the Falklands flagged vessel, the John Cheek, a lack of clarity on the part of the Argentine authorities about their boundaries with international waters, would seem to indicate a more circumspect approach.

He concluded, “It is important, always, in international law to try to get the facts clear and defined for everybody’s benefit. The Falklands are not the only people to have had trouble with vessels being arrested in areas on the high seas where they thought they were in international waters and the Argentines say they’re not and take them in and fine them.â€

“You can refuse to pay the fines, of course, but that means that you are there for months on end; you may end up losing your vessel or goodness knows what. So companies are forced to take a practical point of view. Now that’s not at all satisfactoryâ€.

“Both the British and Spanish governments, I know, have tried to get the Argentine government to define more precisely where they regard the edge of their zone as beig, but that’s not quite so easy.â€

John Fowler (Mercopress) Stanley

 

[NozzyNozzer]

An Argentine re-invasion of the Falkland Islands at this time would be the perfect diversion from more pressing concerns. Of course we'd send in our overstretched forces - it would be the perfect excuse to get out of Iraq on the double! It would also, in my view, affirm the integrity of today's RN youngsters who after the initial period of being shit scared would perform brilliantly and be a credit the the service.

Hope I don't get re-called up anytime soon - bits of me are probably more radioactive than the average uranium tipped torpedo! :lol:

 

[Shakey]

Do we still have air superiority down there? Anyone know what the respective sides have got?

 

[CheefTiff]

Didn't like em in 82 and I don't like em now.

Whats more I wouldn't trust the Argie barstewards as far as I could shit em

Just watch em very closely lads, we nearly got our fingers burned in 82 and I very much doubt we could do again now what we did then. You young uns just don't have the resources that we did then. So we'd be down to Blair winging backwards and forwards in his new Blair Force One doing some diplomacy - Now thats a laugh !

 

[Maxi_77]

Galtieri's invasion had far more to do with trying to shift focus from the fact he was making a pretty poor job of being dictator on to something that he believed he could get support for. Up till them despite the outstanding Argentinian claim the countries had managed to actually get on quite well, my export licences for certain military equipment were only revoked after the invasion.

Of course until some one manages to dream up a solution that all three parties will agree to the problem will not go away completely. Whilst we are perhaps not back to pre 82 relationships things are getting better, and if every one could avoid political grandstanding for personal advantage perhaps things would get better faster.

Peter

 

[Passed-over_Loggie]

Do we still have air superiority down there? Anyone know what the respective sides have got?

From Scotland on Sunday, 26 Feb 2006


"Defence experts and staff within the MoD have become concerned about the increase in military activity under Kirchner, and about his political allegiances - particularly with the controversial Chavez.

In recent years, the Argentinian air force has doubled in size, and is now the largest in South America. A major upgrade has fitted new missiles to Mirage fighters and Pucara ground-attack planes.

The British government believes that increased military flights have probed RAF radar defences in the Falklands to assess the time taken by Quick Reaction Alert Tornadoes to reach the area.

The activity is matched in the disputed local sea-space, where each side operates a 200-mile exclusion zone around its coast. A British patrol found an Argentine submarine off the waters of South Georgia, while Argentina's coastguard last week captured a Falklands-flagged fishing vessel it claimed was operating in the country's "economic exclusion zone". The vessel, John Cheek, and its 31-strong crew were taken to the port of Comodoro Rivadavia, 945 miles south of Buenos Aires, where they faced the prospect of heavy fines or having their catches seized.

The vulnerability of British outposts around the world has been underlined by the increased commitments of UK military forces in trouble spots including Iraq and Afghanistan. A number of critics in London and the Falklands believe that the Argentinians may take advantage of the "overstretch" to cause trouble in the south Atlantic.

A senior Ministry of Defence source said: "This could be termed as sabre-rattling, but when our forces are deployed in so many locations, its potential for causing mischief is magnified. We've been watching a steady build-up of the Argentine air force over the past year. Frankly, they have no need for such a large fighting force, and there is concern in Whitehall as to what this is all about."

He added: "The Argentine air force is at least twice the size of that we fought during the Falklands War and the question has to be asked: how many more aircraft do they need?"

Tory MP Andrew Rosindell, chairman of the all-party Falkland Islands Group, said: "It is time the British government told the Argentinians they won't get away with this alarming hostility. I hope the Argentine government is not planning any military action, but we have got to learn the lessons of the past and any actions have to be rebutted. The moment we are seen to be weakening, our resolve is going to be questioned."

Rosindell said residents' fears of abandonment were reinforced last week when the BBC announced it was cutting its twice-weekly bulletins to the islands."


Even given the new size of their Air Force, 1435 Flight's Tornados (4 X Mk3) would need a well co-ordinated saturation raid to overwhelm them. The preparations for that would be noticeable and, assuming clever decisions were made in PJHQ and MoD, they could be reinforced within days.

 

[Old_Hand]

Didn't like em in 82 and I don't like em now.

Whats more I wouldn't trust the Argie barstewards as far as I could shit em

Just watch em very closely lads, we nearly got our fingers burned in 82 and I very much doubt we could do again now what we did then. You young uns just don't have the resources that we did then. So we'd be down to Blair winging backwards and forwards in his new Blair Force One doing some diplomacy - Now thats a laugh !

He is more likely to give them the Falklands!.

 

[Jones265R]

Strange how these things go round and round, in 1998 there was talk in the press regarding Argentina's claim to the FI, obviously things were happening at a political level also as yours truly found himself heading south for a friendly visit to sample the nightlife of MPA. I think the idea was to invoke memories of the Belgrano. At least I was lucky enough to visit St Helena.

 

[Chronic-Malcontent]

Was work partner (post-USN) with an Argentine.. His father was from Ireland.. He would say that he left Argenina at 20 because he was cursed with his fathers Irish logic vs Argentine emotion, they didn't understand him and he didn't understand them.. He is now in his late 60s and still keeps in touch with two cousins back in Argentina and reads local Argentine news online..

He claims that the FI claim and fighting of the 80s was to take the peoples minds off of high inflation and political coruption at home.. And that with the wacky, emotional Argintine logic it may happen again..

 

[Deleted 493]

Suggest you lot read 'Razor's Edge' by Hugh Bicheno. It will give you a better background of the run up to the war and the complexities of socio-political life in Argentina. I'd also suggest you visit Argentina and suss out the mindset of the people therein. Sure, the country is a political shitbox, but the people are excellent. They want a war like a hole in the head. Too many people were killed in the last one and memories too fresh for it to be a runner.

As an aside, if the miracle ever did happen that we were to mine oil from around the islands (and let's face it, there's no discernable proof of it existing in great bulk to be of any worth) and you were Argentine, would you be happy for another country to be draining mineral resources from your continental shelf? Imagine the Shetlands being owned by Argentina and the surrounding carve up of the North Sea favouring them in oilfield boundaries. Would you be happy?

Please refrain from the 'Well, they're ours' and the 'We discovered them' answers. We ceded the islands in 1776 in the Nootka Sound Convention and it was a Dutchman, Sebalde de Veert who 'discovered them' and French who landed there. And anyone can plant settlers (and ignore their wishes for over a hundred years until governmental ambivalence causes an international incident)

Levers

 

[mophead]

Galtieri's invasion had far more to do with trying to shift focus from the fact he was making a pretty poor job of being dictator on to something that he believed he could get support for.

Does this sound familiar?

 

[NozzyNozzer]

Well, just before everyone here gets too complacent, today's Times reminds us that the Argies are back to their old tricks...
[align=center]...new claim to the Falkland Islands[/align]

Looks like we'll be going back out! Oh but hold on, we can't...! :twisted:

 

[Shakey]

Please refrain from the 'Well, they're ours' and the 'We discovered them' answers.

Tell you what then, give the Falklands Islands a referendum. Do you want to be A) British, or B) Argentine?

I can guess what their answer might be.

 

[FlagWagger]

Tell you what then, give the Falklands Islands a referendum. Do you want to be A) British, or B) Argentine?

So answer A is for a nationality beginning with B while answer B is for a nationality beginning with A... sounds like a recipe for confusion to me

 

[NozzyNozzer]

If the SNP win the Scottish elections next year the choice might be more interesting. I think however it would only be reasonable were we to hold a referendum for the Falklanders that we also include the question

Would you like claim sovereignty over Argentina?

After all, Argentina lies off the islands' waters. :wink: