Type 214 Boat is what the RN Need

Discussion in 'Submariners' started by Nutty, Oct 18, 2007.

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  1. Contributor MOde

    Attached is an article I wandered across. If we had a eight or ten of these for local and northern waters and 8 Astutes for blue waters then that would be an effective boat force for the RN.

    OK so the Bombers will have to go.

    Type 214

    Going deep to avoid bomber fans.

  2. Impressive bit of kit - MDD 400m +, 12 weeks endurance and a crew of 27, so no strain on manpower. Are these the ones they claim are virtually undetectable ? Think there's one in Guzz areaat the minute for FOST.
  3. I am not sure whether one should go for the fuel cell technology like the Germans have with it's somewhat troublesome hydrogen and oxygen fuel, or the Swedish Stirling engine which uses that very nice stuff diesel we all love and know so well. I do agree though that we should have a squadron or two of modern AIP boats, to get to the places other boats don't get to. I would also be happy to see the deterent go if and only if we get some thing for it. There is no bl**dy point in having a bargaining chip and then throwing it away without getting a bargain
  4. Nutty,
    The UK Government would never buy them because they haven't been made in our backyard and the MOD Procurement Executive won't have had their chance to FUBAR them.

    Sod it let's get 'em anyway.....As for the bombers question....I always thought they were an unnecessary complication for the waterspace managent teams.
    I was on a boat that went under one (one of ours - gosh we'd NEVER do that to another nation......perish the thought) we went right up his TA and followed the cable along then carried on up and under. Click click click click all the way.....naturally all records had to be shredded so some chinless wonder or other could stand up in the house and state that 'no - none of our Bombers (he'd call them SSBN's of course) has ever been detected on QRA (though what QRA meant would be lost on him) or Index!

    Stick some of the missiles on the SSN's, I'm all for that. Then at least the SSN's could 01 stores and get what they need when they needed it!

    A life under the ocean wave la la lala la la lala!
  5. witsend

    witsend War Hero Book Reviewer

    Is the RN being left behind?
    How long before Non-nuclear boats catch up in endurance and speed?
  6. The truthful answer to that has to be NEVER !

    Endurance and speed are the opposite poles when talking about submarine performance.
    A 214 might have endurance of 12 weeks - but only at 4 knots - and certainly not capable of a 5000 mile run at 25+ knots after that time.

    A nuclear plant not only gives speed and endurance, but also, lots of fresh water, plenty of fresh(ish !) air, plenty of power for a proper galley (and Ipods !), etc, etc, etc.

    Any submarine which relies on diesel, HTP, bottled oxygen or any other exotic fuel, will run out of fuel before it runs out of food. A nuclear boat is the other way round.

    The 212/214s are fantastic submarines - for what they are designed to do, which is not deep water long distance patrols. If we ever decide to become a truly coastal navy (next Defence Review ??) a look at these boats should be well up the list of things to do !
  7. witsend

    witsend War Hero Book Reviewer

    NEVER say never,,,,,,,,,Fresh(ish!) air, that will be O2 pumped back into the ventilation system,,,,,,,,,When was the last time any boat was doing 25+ knots in warmer waters 5000 miles from the cold atlantic.
  8. Every time I read an article or hear from guys in Iraq and Afganistan and listen to how pushed everyone is due to manpower shortages one thing thought that always pops into my mind is that this country needs more submarines. I mean, we as a nation are screaming out for them right now.
  9. From your response it is obvious that your knowledge of submarines is pretty limited !

    Where does the electrical power come from to "pump" the O2 ? Wind turbines ?
    The relevance of your second comment escapes me !
  10. Contributor Mode

    Wher yer been for 18 months Uncle_Ho??


    Isn't most of the waters around our Country shallow continental shelf where a 214 or Gotland would be very handy

  11. Isn't that what I said ?
  12. No you said, "If we ever decide to become a truly coastal navy (next Defence Review ??) a look at these boats should be well up the list of things to do "

    To remain an effective UK NAVY we require Astute for blue water long range patrols and type 214 or similar for North European Waters. What we have is SSN's and SSBN's. Do you notice something not in my first sentence? are yes SSBN's. Now the with the crews and cash used for SSBN's we could have six or more 214's.

  13. I am glad that you brought this subject to RRs attention, I had recently read an article about this boat in a German publication, which was so poorly written it almost seemed like a piss take. The boat seems to be an interesting piece of kit, thank God it's being used by our Allies.

    PS. You can still stick buckets of sunshine on a conventional boat, the Russians certainly did so.
  14. And as I recall the O Boats went everywhere, so remaining in UK waters is a non sequitor. I agree, we ought to have some of these, particularly if we're going to be hanging around warmer, more persian, waters.
  15. Be fair Oslo even on the surface they would only make 12 knots on average. Thats 16 days to the far South Atlantic and one assumes as you get closer you will dive and snort. Hardly quick reponse.

  16. Are we not saying the same thing here ?

    Continental shelf = coastal.

    I made an earlier comment (in another thread about Astute) that Trident has turned into an expensive white elephant and that nuclear capable (TLAM) Astute seemed to be the best way to use the decreasing amount of money we have left.

    But, having been on the "inside" and seen the way the programme has been run by BAE (and MoD) I would have great doubts about ever having any more than 4 Astutes.
  17. As for continental shelf and coastal, they are defined differently so are unlikely to be the same. Coatstal is related to the distance from the coast and as such usually means not out of sight of land, where as the continental shelf is determined by depth and underwater topography and is typically determined by a depth contour between 100 and 140 metres. It can tus be a considerable distance from the coast, or very close.

    Of course there are alternatives to ballistic missiles in deterence, but for the present it would appear that the multiple re-entry vechicle capability in ballistic missiles provides significant advantages and there seems little benefit to the UK in losing this capability at present. Perhaps this will change before we have to spend really serious money on replacing Trident.

    Whilst I would be the first to agree that UK defence contracting is not in any way ideal, and there is fault on both sides it is what we have got so we for the time being have to live with it. Even so on a total cost per boat basis it is still cheaper than buying from the US even if we were to accept US boats 'as they come' because although the planned UPC for their current boats seems attractive there is a whole bunch of design costs to add on, and I just don't see us not wanting something changed. At the end of the day we will have to buy more boats be they follow on Astutes, Astute NG or some AIP boat from Sweden or Germany. The big benefit from AIP boats would be that through the lower cost more hulls could be operated and there are always scenarios when number of hulls beat individual hull capability.
  18. witsend

    witsend War Hero Book Reviewer

    Explain what you talking about when you state "Endurance and speed are the opposite poles when talking about submarine performance". This sounds like another throw away statement like "The truthful answer to that has to be NEVER". Heres another for your defence of the nuclear submarine "The only reason for a nuclear submarine returning alongside is to resupply food stores".

    As for your reFRESHing opinion that "From your response it is obvious that your knowledge of submarines is pretty limited !" The boats atmosphere is contolled by CAMS and any nuclear submariner knows that the atmosphere is not fresh or fresh(ish) but controlled between limits using various equipment. One of these being a electrolyser which takes a Non-esstenial supply of 440 volts, supplied from the Turbo generator switchboards via 600 amp breakers and non-ess load centres, and transforms/rectifies it to produce a max 250 amp DC current, which is passed across demin water in a chamber. The H2O is split into oxygen and hydrogen and with the use of a membrain and the positive and negitive plates taken on different paths. The oxygen is SUPPLIED into the ventilation system and the hydrogen is PUMPED overboard depending on the depth of the submarine.

    As for "The relevance of your second comment escapes me " this was a comment on your statements "A 214 might have endurance of 12 weeks - but only at 4 knots - and certainly not capable of a 5000 mile run at 25+ knots after that time". Only one boat i have ever been on has been able to achieve 25+ and this was in the cold atlantic waters. The speed of a boat is dependant on various factors, but one of the major factors happens to be the main condensers vaccum. I can asure you that considering that most operations are conducted in warmer waters, vaccums are poor and hence the speed of the boats are not what you seem to believe in the owners manual. Any submariner will know that any boat on patrol doesn't sail around at max speed and spends more time at 4 knots listening and watching.

    Now why don't you do the world a favour and hold your breathe,,,,, so the rest of us can get FRESH air!!!!!
  19. Wow - did I get a bite there ! Get down off your high horse; read, then try and understand what I said. It really isn't that difficult.

    Firstly, if you are going to try and insult people - spell your insults properly please !
    Secondly, if you have to resort to insults, it shows the weakness of your case.
    Thirdly, read what you said first, before you attack me for saying something - YOU said that O2 was pumped into the boat - NOT me, I was merely quoting you.

    Thank you for the extract from your part 3 book, as well - that perfectly explains in great detail the point I was making - to make your own atmosphere in a boat requires a LOT of electrical power - a non nuclear boat does not have that capability.
    Your ramblings about speed, endurance, water temperature and "condenser vacuum" totally miss the point - after 12 weeks at 4 kts an SSN CAN do 5000 miles at high speed, an SSK is out of diesel/HTP/coal or firewood. Apart from which, AIP is only designed for slow speed use, high speed requires the use of diesels/lead acid cells/snorting.
    In 1982 nuclear boats spent a couple of weeks off Gib playing with the "skimmers" - then made a high speed transit to the Falklands. Whether they did 25 knots or 50 is irrelevant - a conventional boat couldn't do it - ask the guys who took O boats down South. Once the O boats got there, however, they were able to do things the nuclear boats couldn't.

    Which brings me back to my original comment that non-nuclear boats will never catch up with nuclear on speed and endurance - BUT, there are things that a non nuclear boat can do that a nuclear one cannot.

    I would agree totally with Nutty that a mix of Astutes and 214s would be a potent combination.

    Finally, could I suggest that you don't ask questions if the answers you may get don't fit with your views on the subject, and the only response you can produce to that is insults !

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