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Tree Hugging Protestors: How to deal with them

Maxi_77 said:
Nutty said:
You appear to be stuck in this time warp that you and the Faslane area are the only people to have fairly frequent demonstrations. It is a way of life in London. If the staff of the Clyde Naval Base and the surrounding communities wish to have the advantage of the employment opportunities and the supporting trades and inferstructure then they must also accept that people who think that the UK does not need nuclear weapons, as often stated on this net I am one of them, will demonstrate. In London I am not just talking heavy traffic. It is traffic held up daily by my previous list. We took the financial advantages of working in London and lived with the disavantages. How many people in the area would be happy if the Base shut tommorrow?

NUtty

I think you are missing one particular point we arein the middle of Faslane 365, 365 days of protest. They have themed weekswith various groups coming for a week of trying to make both the base workers and any one else who livesor works in theare suffer as much as possible. This is not the occasional parade butvery regular disruption of daily life. This is not the old Faslane peace camp but a year of heightened activity.

As are the 100's of thousands who work or live within London SW1, Westminster, Buck House, Victoria etc. who also live with this type of thing daily.

AS UncleAlbert said if its you decide it is a valid then its OK if not then its not OK. Most Servicemen and ex believe in a UK Nuclear deterrent so the Peace protest is wrong. I have yet to hear a protest about the Countryside Alliance or similar on these pages because most contributors thinks they are OK. Sorry you can't pick and choose your protest. If it breaks the law its wrong. So Faslane learn to suffer as London does and stop whinging.

NUtty
 
The funniest Protesters are them dumb fcuk hug a fox people from up London way, be jeez do they whinge about us yokels killing the feckin things. Then lo and behold, I'm sat in a London pub reading the Evening Standard and they're all winginging about the influx of the "urban" fox and how its killing all their little pet bunnys and felix the cat and demanding a cull of the bloody things......hello!!! why do you reckon that is then? :roll:
 
Nutty said:
Maxi_77 said:
Nutty said:
You appear to be stuck in this time warp that you and the Faslane area are the only people to have fairly frequent demonstrations. It is a way of life in London. If the staff of the Clyde Naval Base and the surrounding communities wish to have the advantage of the employment opportunities and the supporting trades and inferstructure then they must also accept that people who think that the UK does not need nuclear weapons, as often stated on this net I am one of them, will demonstrate. In London I am not just talking heavy traffic. It is traffic held up daily by my previous list. We took the financial advantages of working in London and lived with the disavantages. How many people in the area would be happy if the Base shut tommorrow?

NUtty

I think you are missing one particular point we arein the middle of Faslane 365, 365 days of protest. They have themed weekswith various groups coming for a week of trying to make both the base workers and any one else who livesor works in theare suffer as much as possible. This is not the occasional parade butvery regular disruption of daily life. This is not the old Faslane peace camp but a year of heightened activity.

As are the 100's of thousands who work or live within London SW1, Westminster, Buck House, Victoria etc. who also live with this type of thing daily.

AS UncleAlbert said if its you decide it is a valid then its OK if not then its not OK. Most Servicemen and ex believe in a UK Nuclear deterrent so the Peace protest is wrong. I have yet to hear a protest about the Countryside Alliance or similar on these pages because most contributors thinks they are OK. Sorry you can't pick and choose your protest. If it breaks the law its wrong. So Faslane learn to suffer as London does and stop whinging.

NUtty

I am not suggesting their protest should not be allowed rather that protesters have like every one else to take care and not over step the mark. Yes central london sees it's fare share of protests, but I suspect few lndoners find that their children miss school for a week because some organisation is holding a protest special event.

Civil disobedience is a very valid form of protest, just be prepared tp do the time or pay the fine if you believe in the cause. The only protesters I disaprove of are those who desire to use violence to make their point, as did some of those protesting her at the G8 summit where violence and intimidation was the order of the day for some, a real contrast to for example the make poverty history march, I met amny of them walking around the streets and they were probably more normal than you or I.

At Faslane it has got so bad the local residents had their own protest at the peace camp, which does eem to have shocked the peaceniks.
 
In a democracy, the right to free assembly and public protest are the qua sine non of free speech. Without them, democratic legitimacy is compromised and freedom of all threatened.

Protestors take many shapes and forms and behave in differing ways. Many protests necessarily seek to limit or curtail the rights of one group in order to enhance their own rights. Rights are not inalienable and, being a synthetic construction (like the law) are open to amendment and removal as human knowledge expands and deepens. For example your right to smoke in your own home in the presence of young children undermines their long-term health. Your right to smoke (or drink, or gamble) therefore trumps your children's' rights to a healthy, secure life. When a protestor is willing to engage in civil disobedience, in order to defend their deeply held beliefs, such as challenging the morality of weapons of mass destruction, which goes directly again Christian teaching, we, as a supposedly majority Christian nation, seem to regard this as wrong. Paradoxically we are largely quiescent about the ongoing genocide in Darfur. However democratic freedom allows people with strongly held beliefs to openly practice hypocrisy. This is a fundamental liberty which should be preserved. It is through their hypocrisy, after all, that they eventually undermine their own moral authority and the legitimacy of their arguments. We should give them the proverbial rope they need (liberty) to hang themselves and undermine their own arguments. That's why, for the record, I support Fred Phelps protesting at US service personnel's funerals. It's backfiring on him and his particular Christian doctrine.

The other angle of protest, more rarely exhibited, are of death threats made against those who challenge those deeply held beliefs. Whilst researching my Criminology Dissertation I received two written death threats telling me to stop my research into Christian hate crime or I would '...by put to death and God [would] treat [my] death as suicide.' I have a pretty good idea where they came from. Of course they had the opposite effect to that intended and encouraged me not only to complete my research, about which I had doubts prior to the threats, but to make a point of having the research published. The death threats not only strengthened my resolve but they also cemented my conviction that Humanism offers the only acceptable moral basis for law and made me into a strong believer in free speech and a libertarian. So, far from being a bad thing, (though I concede it scared me a lot for a considerable time) it has radicalised me in a manner unimaginable 5 years ago, and for the better. You often see the impact of this radicalisation in my contributions to Rum Ration and other fora! :lol:
 

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
Nutty said:
If it breaks the law its wrong. So Faslane learn to suffer as London does and stop whinging.

NUtty

You’ve just said “If it breaks the law it’s wrongâ€, lying in and blocking the A814 breaks the law, are you saying what the protestors are doing is wrong?
 
x4nd said:
Nutty said:
If it breaks the law its wrong. So Faslane learn to suffer as London does and stop whinging.

NUtty

You’ve just said “If it breaks the law it’s wrongâ€, lying in and blocking the A814 breaks the law, are you saying what the protestors are doing is wrong?

As the Countryside Alliance, National Road Haulage Truckers, National Farmers Union, Parents outside of courts etc. but you seem unable to accept that fact as well, concentrating only on the protest that effects you and of which you disapprove of their point of view.

Either condemn all who break the law to protest or shut up.

Nutty
 
Maxi_77 said:
Nutty said:
Maxi_77 said:
Nutty said:
You appear to be stuck in this time warp that you and the Faslane area are the only people to have fairly frequent demonstrations. It is a way of life in London. If the staff of the Clyde Naval Base and the surrounding communities wish to have the advantage of the employment opportunities and the supporting trades and inferstructure then they must also accept that people who think that the UK does not need nuclear weapons, as often stated on this net I am one of them, will demonstrate. In London I am not just talking heavy traffic. It is traffic held up daily by my previous list. We took the financial advantages of working in London and lived with the disavantages. How many people in the area would be happy if the Base shut tommorrow?

NUtty

I think you are missing one particular point we arein the middle of Faslane 365, 365 days of protest. They have themed weekswith various groups coming for a week of trying to make both the base workers and any one else who livesor works in theare suffer as much as possible. This is not the occasional parade butvery regular disruption of daily life. This is not the old Faslane peace camp but a year of heightened activity.

As are the 100's of thousands who work or live within London SW1, Westminster, Buck House, Victoria etc. who also live with this type of thing daily.

AS UncleAlbert said if its you decide it is a valid then its OK if not then its not OK. Most Servicemen and ex believe in a UK Nuclear deterrent so the Peace protest is wrong. I have yet to hear a protest about the Countryside Alliance or similar on these pages because most contributors thinks they are OK. Sorry you can't pick and choose your protest. If it breaks the law its wrong. So Faslane learn to suffer as London does and stop whinging.

NUtty

. The only protesters I disaprove of are those who desire to use violence to make their point, as did some of those protesting her at the G8 summit where violence and intimidation was the order of the day for some, a real contrast to for example the make poverty history march,
.

Peter

As did the Countryside Alliance in Parliment Square, As did the Metropolitan Police to prevent any person/protestor getting with 500 yards of The Chairman/President of China, as did the Coal Miners as did the Poll Tax protestors etc. Unfortunatley the contributors at the start of this thread wanted to hang, shoot and flog the Peace Camp protestors but seem unable to accept that protests with which they may agree should be treated in the same way.

Nutty
 

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
Nutty said:
Either condemn all who break the law to protest or shut up.

Nutty

I do condemn those who break the law. How do you decide which laws can be broken to protest? Who decides at what point the law breaking becomes unacceptable? Please don’t tell me that Trident is illegal.
 
I fear Nutty perhaps fuelled by his own particular dislike of nuclear weapons is still missing the point that the current Faslane 365 is not like the protest we see elsewhere but is an almost daily occurence some weeks, the 365 in the title is the clue. They have theme weeks (a bit like holiday camps) such as Colleg lecurers ahgainst Trident, Frogs against Trident and s on. During these themed weeks they have daily protests, now to my knowledge Londn has never had daily marches by the countryside alliance, or the anti war demonstrators or even CND.

Try here for the planned 'rota' for blockades

http://www.faslane365.org/en/rota

This is a trfle more than the occasional London Demo.
 

ukdaytona

War Hero
Maxi_77 said:
I fear Nutty perhaps fuelled by his own particular dislike of nuclear weapons is still missing the point that the current Faslane 365 is not like the protest we see elsewhere but is an almost daily occurence some weeks, the 365 in the title is the clue. They have theme weeks (a bit like holiday camps) such as Colleg lecurers ahgainst Trident, Frogs against Trident and s on. During these themed weeks they have daily protests, now to my knowledge Londn has never had daily marches by the countryside alliance, or the anti war demonstrators or even CND.

Try here for the planned 'rota' for blockades

http://www.faslane365.org/en/rota

This is a trfle more than the occasional London Demo.


I say we find out where the organisers live and we go protest their house, setup up camp in their front garden, block their way, scare their kids and see how they like it.

Childish - YES
Against thier human rights - Hell Yes (probably)
BUT If its good for the goose its good for the gander
 
ukdaytona said:
Maxi_77 said:
I fear Nutty perhaps fuelled by his own particular dislike of nuclear weapons is still missing the point that the current Faslane 365 is not like the protest we see elsewhere but is an almost daily occurence some weeks, the 365 in the title is the clue. They have theme weeks (a bit like holiday camps) such as Colleg lecurers ahgainst Trident, Frogs against Trident and s on. During these themed weeks they have daily protests, now to my knowledge Londn has never had daily marches by the countryside alliance, or the anti war demonstrators or even CND.

Try here for the planned 'rota' for blockades

http://www.faslane365.org/en/rota

This is a trfle more than the occasional London Demo.


I say we find out where the organisers live and we go protest their house, setup up camp in their front garden, block their way, scare their kids and see how they like it.

Childish - YES
Against thier human rights - Hell Yes (probably)
BUT If its good for the goose its good for the gander

Thats exactly what the residents of Garelochead did
 
x4nd said:
Nutty said:
Either condemn all who break the law to protest or shut up.

Nutty

I do condemn those who break the law. How do you decide which laws can be broken to protest? Who decides at what point the law breaking becomes unacceptable? Please don’t tell me that Trident is illegal.

No law can be broken in protest and all law breaking is unacceptable. Of course a point is reached when the law needs to be enforced and that must be the decision of the Police Officer at the scene. Of course there are hundreds of laws that are never enforced like in most towns its illegal to light a bonfire within 50 foot of a public highway even if it is in your back garden.

I have never intimated I think Trident is illegal, neither am I particularly anti nuclear weapons. I have no problem with single unit warhead tactical nuclear weapons, be they cruise, a/c, artillery or A/S weapon delivered. I object to Trident on the grounds that it is not an Independent Nuclear Deterrent (i.e. under the sole control of the UK a subject well covered so lets not go there). What I do strongly; object to is contributors who think protesters in the Faslane area with whom they do not agree with should be and I quote from their post:

"No one else in the world seems to put up with them, well I have an idea as to how to deal with the annoying tree huggers;

Once arrested lets send them out to Iran too protest about their Nuclear program and see how far they get ! (Could even take Faye with them, she seems to know the right people"

“Most tree huggers seem to be allergic to soap… just wave bars of Imperial Leather in their facesâ€

“Here's an even easier idea. Just shoot them. “

“If they’re on benefits, stop their benefits (they should be spending their time looking for a job). If they’re foreigners, deport them and stop them from entering the country for the next five years. A little harsh, may be: Effective, yes.â€

“Deal with Tree Huggers the same way we deal with dead trees, chop them down, shove them through a shredder or burn them or use weed killer.

Alternatively, Id go with just shooting them or riot wagon and water cannons.

We could also split them into small groups and put them in rooms with 'pro-xxxxxx' demonstrators - now that would be good sport and worth watching “

These same people seem to think they are the only people in the UK who suffer from demonstrations and when asked to condemn the favored protesters who also act illegally, on occasions with violence and break the law we are met with the deafening double standards of silence.


The Countryside Alliance
National Farmers Union
Haulage Association
Parents Protesting O/S Courts where alleged child sex offenders appear
Coal Miners
BNP and associated pollies

Live with it or move out of the area and stop being employed at CNB its your choice as it is for Londoners to put up with all the shit they do.

Nutty
 
Nutty said:
Live with it or move out of the area and stop being employed at CNB its your choice as it is for Londoners to put up with all the shit they do.

Nutty

Now now Nutty, if it is OK for then to protest it is equally OK for others to protest about them. The Faslane Peaceniks have been tolerated by all including the residents of CSB for many years, I remeber after their traditional George Square to Faslane Easter march which ended in terrible weather, you know Faslane in spring, freezing and wet, when the barrackmaster actually invited then in for a cup of tea to ward of hypothermia. No the problem is not the protest per se but the current Faslane 365 which is impacting as much on people who have sod all to do with CSB
 
Maxi_77 said:
Nutty said:
Live with it or move out of the area and stop being employed at CNB its your choice as it is for Londoners to put up with all the shit they do.

Nutty

Now now Nutty, if it is OK for then to protest it is equally OK for others to protest about them. The Faslane Peaceniks have been tolerated by all including the residents of CSB for many years, I remeber after their traditional George Square to Faslane Easter march which ended in terrible weather, you know Faslane in spring, freezing and wet, when the barrackmaster actually invited then in for a cup of tea to ward of hypothermia. No the problem is not the protest per se but the current Faslane 365 which is impacting as much on people who have sod all to do with CSB

FFS all demonstrations impinge on people who have sod all to do with them. Like the wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/children of the Police Officer who reglarly has his weekly leaves cancelled to cover these events. Thats why people demonstrate to cause the maximum distruption and publicity.

NUtty
 
Look you lot, Nutty is quite right here to point out double-standards. Public protest is legitimate whoever does it, not just the people you approve of. Picketig private homes in my view crosses a line and amounts to intimidation, but hey, so does much protest that does not take on this form. Like Voltaire, I would defend the right to protest (and I should know what I am talking about, after all) over the alternative repression and undermining of democratic and libetarian values. I should point out that I am a liberal libetarian, not one of those ultra-right wing ones!

Outside my office are frequent protests and demonstrations. They are often noisy and occassionally disruptive. They are part of life, just like the old threats of being bombed by the IRA were and being a prime terrorist target for "Muslim" fundamentalist terrorists today. You just learn to live with it. Now stop moaning and get a life! :twisted: :wink: :lol:

I don't know, kids/matelots these days! :twisted:
 

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
Nutty said:
“If they’re on benefits, stop their benefits (they should be spending their time looking for a job). If they’re foreigners, deport them and stop them from entering the country for the next five years. A little harsh, may be: Effective, yes.â€

These same people seem to think they are the only people in the UK who suffer from demonstrations and when asked to condemn the favored protesters who also act illegally, on occasions with violence and break the law we are met with the deafening double standards of silence.


The Countryside Alliance
National Farmers Union
Haulage Association
Parents Protesting O/S Courts where alleged child sex offenders appear
Coal Miners
BNP and associated pollies

Live with it or move out of the area and stop being employed at CNB its your choice as it is for Londoners to put up with all the shit they do.

Nutty

I left that quote in because it’s one of mine. I’m not so blinkered as to believe that the only demonstrations are at Faslane. It’s wrong to act illegally no matter what you’re protesting about, so yes, I do condemn the illegal actions of the other groups you mention.

Are you really suggesting that members of the public (men, woman and children) who have no contact (let alone employment) with the base should live with these illegal activities or move out of the area?

You keep on mentioning protests in London, these protests are carried out on closed off roads, fully policed, and with diversions put in place. The protests at Faslane are not, so you really can’t compare the two. Are you aware of the illegal actions at Faslane and the impact they’re having on the local community, those who have no link with the base?
 

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
Always_a_Civvy said:
Picketig private homes in my view crosses a line and amounts to intimidation, but hey, so does much protest that does not take on this form.

To many HMNB Clyde is their home, does that mean Faslane 365 have crossed that line?
 
X4nd
Quote
"You keep on mentioning protests in London, these protests are carried out on closed off roads, fully policed, and with diversions put in place. The protests at Faslane are not, so you really can’t compare the two. Are you aware of the illegal actions at Faslane and the impact they’re having on the local community, those who have no link with the base?"Unquote

You have obviosly never attended a stop the city demo, poll tax demo, England v Scotland football match being played at Wembly. In todays one way street of London there is no such thing as a diversion in congested streets before the Plod shut them off willy nilly and you assume the demonstraors keep to them. Well let me assure you even the best do not.

Yes I am aware of the impact, my brother lives at Kilcreggan, but as I still say its part of life if you do not like it leave, as I did from the UK cos I was pissed off with London. Even more lucky I got out 7 days before the 7/7 bombing and all the subsequent chaos that caused the long suffering public of London. I my last employment I had to visit by vehicle any one over over 200 betting shops within 4 miles of Charring Cross on an instant response basis. Not with standing others as far away at Pompey, Salisbury, Broadstairs, Brighton, Luton etc. I have extensive knowledge of how demonstration mess up daily London Life.

Nutty
 
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