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The Lost Submarines in the Meditteranean in WW2

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jimbocan

Newbie
There are still a good number of submarines that were reported as "Missing in Action" during operations in the Meditteranean Sea during World War Two.
A Belgian diver, Jean-Pierre Misson, believes that he discovered the wreck of HMS Urge off Marsa el Hilal, in Libya, in 2012. He searched the bay with his sidescan sonar set and, after further research, including checking Italian archive records and various accounts in books written after the war, was able to identify the wreck of HMS Urge.
Unfortunately, the conditions in Libya changed and he has been unable to return to investigate his find further. Information relating to his find has been saved in a YouTube video on this link:
Following the change in conditions in Libya, he moved along the coast to the coastal town of Tabarka, in Tunisia.
In the bay off Tabarka, in a small corridor some 600 metres long and 200 metres wide, his sidescan sonar located a number of wrecks on the sea floor. A minefield was laid by Regia Marina in the bay during the war and the majority of the wrecks are the victims of those mines. The exception to that would be the wreck of HMS Quentin, which was bombed offshore, some twenty of her crew were killed in the attack and she was abandoned, the crew being rescued by HMAS Quiberon. HMS Quentin then floated for some time, before sinking in the bay at Tabarka.
Other wrecks at Tabarka include an unidentified cargo ship and the Italian submarine Smeraldo, which was lost with 45 crew members. Another of the wrecks is that of a German Eboat, Schnellboot S.35.
Perhaps the most startling thing about the bay at Tabarka is the fact that JP Misson claims that there are eight British submarine wrecks lying there. These include HMS Tetrarch, HMS Talisman, HMS Utmost, HMS P222, HMS Tigris, HMS Thunderbolt, HMS Turbulent and HMS Usurper. If these claims are correct, they are the war graves of some 444 British submariners.
Unfortunately, due to the current pandemic, further investigations into these wrecks has not been possible. They all lie at a depth of between 60 and 80 metres.
A planned visit to survey the area by an Italian naval vessel was cancelled due to other operational commitments, but it is still hoped that further investigations can be carried out at some time in the future. Because of the compactness of the wrecks, it would make a great location for a documentary, such as "Drain the Ocean" or other historical documentary.
Information relating to his find at Tabarka has been saved in a YouTube video on this link:
 

spearfish

War Hero
Unfortunately the gentleman is very much mistaken. The wreck of Urge has been found near Malta and the rest of his alleged wrecks are hundreds of miles out of their operating areas. Turbulent is believed to have been sunk by an Italian warship near Capri.
The comment by Platon A on youtube regarding the veracity of the second clip is worth a read. Platon is the expert on these matters and he believes that this discovery is complete nonsense. I am not going to make any further comment either here or on other websites where Misson has been trying to pedal this story or respond to personal messages from him.
Edited to say that I feel sorry for all those he has duped and offered false hope to especially relatives.
 
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jimbocan

Newbie
My great concern is the fact that the video and images of the Malta wreck do not match with those of HMS Urge. For example, who stripped the casing off the wreck, why would it be at sea with the torpedo derrick rigged on deck, why has it got a different shaped hydroplane and tailfin to that of Urge? Why do they show the images of more than one boat in their announcement? So many questions need to be answered and only further exploration of the wreck will reveal that.
Time will tell on both locations as to what is actually there. There are certainly a number of wrecks off Tabarka, not least of which is Quentin which the sonar image shows clearly and the archives will confirm that. What the archives do not show is "exactly" where each of the missing boats were lost. They only report their last known locations before their loss.
 

Kingo

Newbie
Unfortunately the gentleman is very much mistaken. The wreck of Urge has been found near Malta and the rest of his alleged wrecks are hundreds of miles out of their operating areas. Turbulent is believed to have been sunk by an Italian warship near Capri.
The comment by Platon A on youtube regarding the veracity of the second clip is worth a read. Platon is the expert on these matters and he believes that this discovery is complete nonsense. I am not going to make any further comment either here or on other websites where Misson has been trying to pedal this story or respond to personal messages from him.
I am the relative of one of the crew of HMS Talisman, and I have over the years researched the history. I have also been provided with a great deal of information from JP Misson and have discussed his findings with my son, who is an explosives expert in the Army. He states that the positioning of a minefield off Tabarka is the logical place to put one.
so I am interested to know why you are convinced that JP is wrong.
 

jimbocan

Newbie
Sorry spearfish, but JP Misson was not the first to claim that HMS Urge was at Marsa el Hilal. Three different authors, in 1986, 1997 and 2011 all mention the attack of a submarine at that location, citing Urge as the probable target:
A.S. EVANS - BENEATH THE WAVES - 1986 - Pages 314-315
J. ROHWER - ALLIED SUBMARINE ATTACKS OF WWII - 1997 - Page 156
T. CLAYTON - SEA WOLVES - 2011 - Page 283
The sonar images released by the University of Malta all show wrecks that have been stripped of their casings. HMS Pandora and HMS P39 were both sunk in Malta harbour during the war and were later stripped of their casings and other equipment before being dumped off the coast of Malta in the 1950's. These two boats feature as sonar images in the University of Malta publicity.
As well as being apparent in the sonar images and videos, the missing casings are also mentioned in this article https://wikivisually.com/wiki/HMS_Pandora_(N42)
 
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Kingo

Newbie
It is disappointing that Spearfish seems to have information that could possibly give some form of closure to the families of the submariners lost in the Med, but chooses not to share it. From the information that I have seen on the Urge dive off Malta, it seem there are a lot of discrepancies in what they found, especially when compared to eye witness statements contained in books already in circulation.
My mother is in her 90s ad has lived her life with the unanswered question of where her brother and the rest of the crew of The Talisman areTalisman Gibraltar 1942.jpg.
 

spearfish

War Hero
The desperate man believes a charlatan and the commentators above have all been told lies by one person who is desperate for publicity.When they see one avenue close because their lies have been revealed they try another.
In his own words-
I am no expert on sonar images or submarines of this period
As I say above I feel sorry for those they have given false hope to.
I have been harassed across various website from Facebook to one about dogs by Misson and Jimbocan pedalling this nonsense. I will never believe their story.
I have reported some of the posts above claiming I withhold information as the lies they plainly are.The post was offensive and possibly libellous.
 
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Kingo

Newbie
The desperate man believes a charlatan and the commentators above have all been told lies by one person who is desperate for publicity.When they see one avenue close because their lies have been revealed they try another.
As I say above I feel sorry for those they have given false hope to.
I have been harassed across various website by Misson and Jimbocan pedalling this nonsense. I will never believe their story.
This is my final post on tne subject and I have reported some of the posts above claiming I withhold information as lies they plainly are.
I can only think that you have reported me, from what you have said. You have been quite adamant that JP Misson is wrong and as such I merely asked if you could provide me with any information that would disprove him. I then stated that I was disappointed that you hadn’t provided any information, this is not accusing you of withholding information. I am the relative of one of the crew seeking information about the Talisman, nothing more and nothing less. But I will say that my research and the information provided by JP Misson has given hope to my mother in a family mystery. I am sorry if you found my post offensive, I was merely asking if you had further information.
 

jimbocan

Newbie
The desperate man believes a charlatan and the commentators above have all been told lies by one person who is desperate for publicity.When they see one avenue close because their lies have been revealed they try another.
As I say above I feel sorry for those they have given false hope to.
I have been harassed across various website from Facebook to one about dogs by Misson and Jimbocan pedalling this nonsense. I will never believe their story.
This is my final post on the subject and I have reported some of the posts above claiming I withhold information as the lies they plainly are.The post was offensive and possibly libellous.
I don't see how you can feel harassed, as far as I can see there has only been discussion on the validity of the claim that they have discovered HMS Urge off Malta. The video and sonar images that have been released by the University of Malta do not appear to be of HMS Urge. There appears to be a sonar image of HMS Pandora, with her torpedo derrick raised on the forward casing - she was sunk in Malta harbour during the war and later refloated and scuttled off Malta. Another sonar image that was released shows a U Class submarine with damage at the stern and twin bollards on the after casing, most likely HMS P39 (which like Pandora was sunk in Malta and later scuttled offshore) - Urge had no such bollards. Their video footage also shows a submarine that has been stripped of its casing - who removed the casing? Mr Misson is only trying to highlight the anomalies in this claim, which there are many. I am sure that the families of those lost on HMS Urge would like to know, beyond doubt, where there loved ones lie.
As previously stated, Mr Misson was not the first to mention that HMS Urge may have been attacked at Marsa el Hilal, as there are numerous sources with the same claim, some of which are covered in this video:
https://youtu.be/iLfhHeejUFs
 
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spearfish

War Hero
“I don't see how you can feel harassed,“
So it wasn’t you Jimbo sending me unsolicited messages on Facebook and JP Misson never tried to contact me by sending messages through a site for pedigree dogs, to my personal email or to the forum master of the SNR? Yet more lies from you.
You also seem to have a short memory about replies you made to comments made on your fictional videos on Youtube. Every time you are confronted with the truth you choose to ignore it and pedal your lies somewhere else.
 
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jimbocan

Newbie
“I don't see how you can feel harassed,“
So it wasn’t you *name removed by MOD* sending me unsolicited messages on Facebook and JP Misson never tried to contact me by sending messages through a site for pedigree dogs, to my personal email or to the forum master of the SNR? Yet more lies from you.
You also seem to have a short memory about replies you made to comments made on your fictional videos on Youtube. Every time you are confronted with the truth you choose to ignore it and pedal your lies somewhere else.
GOODBYE!
My sincere apologies if you view my contact on facebook as unsolicited. You were recommended by a mutual friend as someone who would give an unbiased view on the images posted by the University of Malta. Obviously, ship recognition is not your forte and I can appreciate your reluctance to give a view on the graphics used that might be at odds with those involved in the discovery of the wreck. Had I known that you were one and the same that posts here, I would not have contacted you.
There was no malicious intent in my contact and I am sorry that you feel there was. You have made three posts on this thread now and, apart from deriding me and the claims by Mr Missons, you have not attempted to answer any of the questions raised about the Malta discovery. To describe those observations, which differ from the observations provided by the University of Malta as lies is a little immature.
It has been pointed out that several submarines were sunk in Malta harbour during the war and they were later raised and taken out to sea off Malta and scuttled. It might be a pure coincidence but the images and footage used by the University of Malta have a striking resemblance and similar damage to at least two of those submarines, ie HMS Pandora and HMS P39.
All I ask is for a healthy discussion on the observations that still have not been answered, including:
Who removed the casing from the discovered wreck?
Why is a torpedo derrick standing proud on the wreck?
Why is the shape of the tail fin different to that of HMS Urge?
Why are there two bollards on the after casing, when HMS Urge did not have bollards at that position?
Why are the free flood holes a different shape to those of HMS Urge?
Why are, at least, three different submarines shown in their sonar images and video footage?
 
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spearfish

War Hero
Lies are lies and there is no point conversing with you as even when you are confronted with the truth you do not accept it as has repeatedly been mentioned here and on youtube.
Looking at your post above how can you tell that ship recognition is not my forte?Is it because I would have called you out on your lies?

On the forum you moderate you write the following about HMS Urge but on this website you purport to be an expert!

I am no expert on sonar images or submarines of this period

What are you?

I do wonder whether I am replying to a sane person as I cannot see any sign of rational thought in your replies .You have also been sarcastic and critical to me without any facts . Thank you also for the slur of immaturity.
I will repeat again that you and your friend Misson are charlatans and liars and guilty of fraud.You have also deceived the families of those who have died serving their country.
Misson‘s abusive emails to the MOD and the RNSM are a matter of record and wellknown across the naval history community.
To answer your questions above I suggest that you read all of the comments on your fake videos as you appear to have a short memory or are you just ignoring them as you usually do? They explain perfectly why you are wrong in everything you state.
If you persist with your lies I will be contacting the police and the MOD to report you for harassment and fraud.I do however worry about your mental health as you are plainly deluded as shown in your nonsense above.
To everybody who reads this please trust me that this story concocted by the original poster is complete lies. There are no submarines wrecked and piled on top of each other all within a small geographic box off a beach in the middle of nowhere.
It is all fake.
As to why J**** is an idiot who has been taken in by Misson and he is trying to not accept the truth by attacking others and ignoring everything they write anywhere they try and spread their lies.

Reader make your own mind up but there is no truth in anything he writes. i have nothing to gain apart from wanting the truth which unfortunately is a quality that is alien to J**** and his controller Misson.I ask you what they are trying to gain pedalling this nonsense but I think we all know.
KERCHING!.
 
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spearfish

War Hero
To remind you all this story told by Jimbo is lies and I doubt that he could identify a U class submarine if it surfaced in his bath.
In his own words-
I am no expert on sonar images or submarines of this period
 
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jimbocan

Newbie
The Naval History fraternity appears to be spitting feathers at the fact that someone has the gall to question the announcement by the University of Malta. Whilst you have made personal comments against me and my support of Mr Misson, I am still firmly of the opinion that their sonar images and video footage are not 100% proof that they have found HMS Urge. Only comments of derision have been made and not one has answered the questions in my previous post. Regardless of where HMS Urge will eventually be found, the Malta claim remains flawed. The sonar image released (in the centre of the attached graphic) was the first thing that struck me as not quite right. I do not believe it shows a U Class submarine.
If Spearfish is still around, will you ask the police to knock hard as my doorbell is broken.
 

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jimbocan

Newbie
I have updated the video regarding the wreck at Marsa el Hilal being HMS Urge. The video includes many references which cite HMS Urge being the submarine that was attacked at Marsa el Hilal on 29th April. Her wreck lies some 700 metres east of the wreck of the German Uboat U205.
 

Glover

Newbie
I concur with Spearfish about the veracity of the claims forwarded in these videos. This may prove disappointing to Kingo but there is practically no chance that HMS Talisman was ever lost at Tabarka as there were no minefields there at the time and her route to Malta passed through 38°10' N, 08°59' E which is about 70 miles north of Tabarka. Submarines did not deviate from the course they were prescribed as bombing restrictions were arranged especially for them to prevent friendly fire. In fact HMS Talisman was instrumental in the sinking of the Italian submarine Alabastro which she sighted and reported to Gibraltar. A Sunderland of 202 Squadron was sent and caught Alabastro cruising on the surface and sank her with five Torpex depth charges. HMS Talisman was probably mined near Cape Bon.

This comment was posted on youtube which readers may find edifying:

"The methodology used by Mr. Misson & co. to identify “wrecks”:
Read in books which submarines disappeared in WW2 then claim to have found them at Ras Hilal or Tabarka by producing sonar photos which are so blurred that they are risible:
The list of the claims made by the above at one time or another (all submarines except where indicated):

At Ras Hilal:

1. HMS Urge (in fact U 205 known to be there, but he could not find it!)
2. Italian Argonauta
3. Italian Foca
4. Italian Picci Fassio (tanker)

+
At Tabarka:

1. HMS Usk
2. HMS Undaunted
3. HMS Union
4. HMS Upholder
5. HMS P.38
6. HMS P.33
7. HMS P.48
8. HMS Usurper
9. HMS Tetrarch
10. HMS Talisman
11. HMS Utmost
12. HMS Tigris
13. HMS P.222
14. HMS Thunderbolt
15. HMS Turbulent
16. HMS Quentin (destroyer)
17. S 35 (German MTB)
18. Italian Asteria
19. Italian Avorio
20. Italian Cobalto
21. Italian Porfido
22. Italian Dessié
23. Italian Smeraldo

If you have swallowed this crude hoax…
None of the above ever went to Ras Hilal or Tabarka.
It is obvious that the authors of these fantasies are only interested in gaining notoriety. I have known several teams involved in the search of wrecks but thankfully none were producing lies on this scale.

For Ras Hilal, a hydrographic survey made for the Libyan authorities in 2003 located only the known wreck of U 205 (already visited by British divers led by Cdr. Bartlett back in February 1943). There was never a claim of HMS Urge being sunk at Ras Hilal but the error occurred in the book by Evans (Beneath the Waves published in 1986) who was misled and floated the idea without carefully checking his sources. Other authors just quoted the same mistake. In fact, Admiral Fioravanzo of the Italian Historical Section had discussed the HMS Urge case with Commodore Kemp of the Naval Historical Branch and the Ras Hilal theory was not considered. The wreck of HMS Urge was found in Malta in 2019 exactly in the path of her sailing orders.
After several weeks of examining the evidence, it was endorsed by the British Ministry of Defence. The MoD has not endorsed any of the Ras Hilal or Tabarka claims.

The claims for the other “wrecks” are so far-fetched, that I will not bother to challenge them individually. To fit their stories, they have drawn imaginary paths which have little resemblance with reality. If the reader is gullible enough to believe that wrecks can travel hundreds of miles as the authors pretend, then I will not waste my time to argue with you."
 

JPM

Newbie
The ADMIRALTY WAR DIARIES read :
Monday 27 th April (this date in unimportant , only the Text matters)
Submarine URGE (Lt Cdr E P Tomkinson DSO) was sunk by Italian aircraft off Ras el Hilal . Cdr Tomkinson, Lt D B Allen , Lt J M S Poole DSC , Ty/Lt J S D Ransome DSC RNR , twenty eight ratings and 11 RN rating passengers for Alexandria were lost.

The detail "Ty" indicates the source of this entry is knowledgeable and official.

On the subject of HMS URGE having been found "off Malta" : the MoD and the Families of those entombed
in her have been blatantly fooled because she has been at Marsa el Hilal Libya since the morning of April 29 th 1942.
The sonar image obtained at Marsa el Hilal in 2012 shows a submarine with the fore-end carved out and the deck Gun is missing : the salvage work can only have occured because the torpedoes and the gun could be reused : this submarine is British , this submarine is HMS URGE.
In due time the Truth will surface and the fraudsters will have to recant their claim.
 

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JPM

Newbie
A complement :
 

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Glover

Newbie
I think that JPM has stared too long at these sonar pictures and if this all the "proofs" he has of the "presence " of HMS Urge at Ras Hilal then I am afraid he is seriously in error. He still does not explain how the 2003 Hydrographic survey reported only ONE wreck at Ras Hilal which is obviously that of U 205 known to have foundered there in 1943. In fact the wreck located by the survey is only 300 metres from the wreck of U 205 as reported by the CinC Med diaries in 1943, which is pretty accurate by WW2 standards. The sonar pictures of Ras Hilal are so blurred that I do not know how he can state this is HMS Urge without a doubt when one can hardly tell if this is a submarine at all. It seems to me that the Malta wreck is at least a real U-class submarine. All this has already been discussed on other forums. On the subject of fraudulent claims: the claim that he has discovered nine submarine wrecks at Tabarka is equally ridiculous. I have carefully checked their files. None of these submarines ever operated near Tabarka. An elaborate hoax which has fooled more than one! I noted on another forum that JPM claimed that wrecks could travel hundreds of miles! Really? A Tunisian diver has recently located near Cape Bon the wreck of the French submarine Ariane lost in WW1. At least this is a real wreck and not a figment of someone's imagination.
 

JPM

Newbie
"the Malta wreck is at least a real U-class submarine".
This is far from allowing you to claim this wreck is HMS URGE : there is about half a dozen U Class boats that are resting off Malta , including HMS PANDORA , HMS P39 (you have published their sonar images , claiming they were of URGE...) , plus HMS P36 : all three are known to have been dumped offshore Malta after the war...
The wreck on the video you published in the CNN article is surely HMS P33 and the hydroplane appearing in
the TV Malta article can only be of HMS P48 !
Make no mistake : the reality of what lies on the seafloor at Marsa el Hilal and off Tabarka will come to light
whether you like it or not.
The sonar picture of that wreck at Marsa el Hilal (earlier Post) shows the hinge of the Torpedo Hatch and that
this Hatch opened to Starboard : this is typical of the U (and S) Class : the wreck is a British U Class : HMS URGE ,
the Enemy submarine indicated in the Italian Regia Aeronautica "Relazione Operativa".
Serious Historians and Authors have confirmed the loss and the whereabouts of URGE : Marsa el Hilal , LIBYA

Just read ADMIRALTY WAR DIARIES (the entry copied in my earlier Post)
and
check this Date indicated in the N.A. Files :
1602626094897.png
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Having sailed from Malta , at dawn , on April 27 th....HMS URGE was way beyond the minefields around
the Island , on the 29 th : ADM 358/4080 confirms that HMS URGE cannot be "off Malta" as you claim.
The readers might be interested to know you started planning your deception in 2016 , as outlined in
the Attachment.
You have managed to deceive Naval Historical Branch , the Naval Service , the MoD... but worse of all you
have fooled the families of those entombed in HMS URGE in letting them believe their loved ones are off Malta when the truth is the War Grave is in the bay called Marsa el Hilal , in Libya.
Because your scheme was deliberate , it is unforgivable (the more so because you took advantage of your position as Subject Matter Expert to deliver it)....
 
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