The loss of HMS Sheffield

Fletch

Badgeman
Father_Famine said:
Hi,

Thanks for that Fletch, that is a very interesting thread, one which I have bookmarked for future reference

The latest is now on site and it DOESN'T look like good reading !!!

The word WHITEWASH is being used and I tend to agree !!!!

What does everyone think ?

http://mylostoppos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4830&page=92

May I respectfully suggest that those of you involved or interested get closely behind George as I would assume that he will be quite bemused and annoyed by this let down.
 

chockhead819

War Hero
"Some details have been removed from the document, including what appear to be names of crew who did not perform adequately"

and which AAWO would that be I wonder??
would he checking could cover or drinking coffee??
 
Just read that Board of enquiry report .



It sneaks in the fact that we had no Air Early Warning devices.
The demise of the fixed wing aircraft and too early for the AEW helo .

Cruise missile detection un satisfactory etc etc.

I think basically the blame is firmly stuck on the ship design and inadequate sensors/detectors etc.

Crew performance is mentioned but more in the case of the training failures ------smoke inhalation and fire fighting in smoke filled compartments. Prior to 1982 it was a little thought about subject.
Fire fighting gear failing etc etc

They were lucky to just lose 20 ? guys.

The decision regarding no Courts Martial required says it all .
 
Just going on my experience as en ex-Killick stoker who only served on 23's -
Costly errors occured - but the fleet learned from it i.e. the 23's.
Good men died from a lack of knowledge/foresight/common sense - rules/operational procedure. OP's are written and instigated by people removed from the situation possibly ten or more years prior to an incident.

I now work in the Oil Industry and have last been on the Tartan Platform that STILL fed the Piper Alpha Platform as it was going up in a plume of smoke and melting - spoke with guys who were there at the time, guess what?
They were following procedure!

SNAFU - we learn from it, do you think that any of the people involved in the loss of life on the Sheffied or the Piper sleep well at night?

To continue to look for scapegoats, to me brings the honourable deaths of our colleagues into a lower place - they died doing what they wore the uniform for.

To me, it's disrespectful to say they died due to a f ck up. They followed orders as any good Matelot would.

Many will disagree with my comments; would you rather remember the men as casualties of war or as a casualty of a procedure that went wrong?

As I've statred before:
"Do you think that any of the people involved in the loss of life on the Sheffied sleep well at night?"

I did serve with several members of Sheffields surviving ships company and have a good idea of what I am talking about: the guys I met would not look for a scapegoat, they would look for the truth and leave it at that.
 

Clouseau

Banned
alhucoll said:
Just going on my experience as en ex-Killick stoker who only served on 23's -
Costly errors occured - but the fleet learned from it i.e. the 23's.
Good men died from a lack of knowledge/foresight/common sense - rules/operational procedure. OP's are written and instigated by people removed from the situation possibly ten or more years prior to an incident.

I now work in the Oil Industry and have last been on the Tartan Platform that STILL fed the Piper Alpha Platform as it was going up in a plume of smoke and melting - spoke with guys who were there at the time, guess what?
They were following procedure!

SNAFU - we learn from it, do you think that any of the people involved in the loss of life on the Sheffied or the Piper sleep well at night?

To continue to look for scapegoats, to me brings the honourable deaths of our colleagues into a lower place - they died doing what they wore the uniform for.

To me, it's disrespectful to say they died due to a f ck up. They followed orders as any good Matelot would.

Many will disagree with my comments; would you rather remember the men as casualties of war or as a casualty of a procedure that went wrong?

As I've statred before:
"Do you think that any of the people involved in the loss of life on the Sheffied sleep well at night?"

I did serve with several members of Sheffields surviving ships company and have a good idea of what I am talking about: the guys I met would not look for a scapegoat, they would look for the truth and leave it at that.

Nicely put.

I have scanned through the linked thread and the one question that springs to my mind is: To what meaningful purpose?

What good can come from this rather bitter contest to apportion blame? As you say; it belittles the sacrifice made. I tend to think that rather than a search for the truth, it is little more than an attempt to create a self gratifying conspiracy theory.
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Clouseau said:
alhucoll said:
Just going on my experience as en ex-Killick stoker who only served on 23's -
Costly errors occured - but the fleet learned from it i.e. the 23's.
Good men died from a lack of knowledge/foresight/common sense - rules/operational procedure. OP's are written and instigated by people removed from the situation possibly ten or more years prior to an incident.

I now work in the Oil Industry and have last been on the Tartan Platform that STILL fed the Piper Alpha Platform as it was going up in a plume of smoke and melting - spoke with guys who were there at the time, guess what?
They were following procedure!

SNAFU - we learn from it, do you think that any of the people involved in the loss of life on the Sheffied or the Piper sleep well at night?

To continue to look for scapegoats, to me brings the honourable deaths of our colleagues into a lower place - they died doing what they wore the uniform for.

To me, it's disrespectful to say they died due to a f ck up. They followed orders as any good Matelot would.

Many will disagree with my comments; would you rather remember the men as casualties of war or as a casualty of a procedure that went wrong?

As I've statred before:
"Do you think that any of the people involved in the loss of life on the Sheffied sleep well at night?"

I did serve with several members of Sheffields surviving ships company and have a good idea of what I am talking about: the guys I met would not look for a scapegoat, they would look for the truth and leave it at that.

Nicely put.

I have scanned through the linked thread and the one question that springs to my mind is: To what meaningful purpose?

What good can come from this rather bitter contest to apportion blame? As you say; it belittles the sacrifice made. I tend to think that rather than a search for the truth, it is little more than an attempt to create a self gratifying conspiracy theory.

nicely put yourself.
I was bemused byu the thread as I could'nt quite see what on earth they were getting excited about.

Basic principle of war is that s**t does sometimes happen, in this case we werent trained properly, and what possible useful purpose can be served by all this.
 

slim

War Hero
Its my belief that the Sheffiels, Coventry & other ships were lost for one reason. The lack of a conventional aircraft like the old Ark Royal.
This would have provided gannets at high level transmitting radar information back to the ship(s). Phantom aricraft to intercept & destroy enemy aircraft & Buccaneer low level bombers capable of tossing a bomb with accuracy a distance of up to four miles without tne need to overfly the target. However the Conservative government had seen fit to dispose of the Ark in 1978.
I still maintain that a conventional carrier combined with submarines would have prevented the loss of our ships save for the one that was hit by a truck mountd exocet.
 

Fletch

Badgeman
Clouseau said:
alhucoll said:
Just going on my experience as en ex-Killick stoker who only served on 23's -
Costly errors occured - but the fleet learned from it i.e. the 23's.
Good men died from a lack of knowledge/foresight/common sense - rules/operational procedure. OP's are written and instigated by people removed from the situation possibly ten or more years prior to an incident.

I now work in the Oil Industry and have last been on the Tartan Platform that STILL fed the Piper Alpha Platform as it was going up in a plume of smoke and melting - spoke with guys who were there at the time, guess what?
They were following procedure!

SNAFU - we learn from it, do you think that any of the people involved in the loss of life on the Sheffied or the Piper sleep well at night?

To continue to look for scapegoats, to me brings the honourable deaths of our colleagues into a lower place - they died doing what they wore the uniform for.

To me, it's disrespectful to say they died due to a f ck up. They followed orders as any good Matelot would.

Many will disagree with my comments; would you rather remember the men as casualties of war or as a casualty of a procedure that went wrong?

As I've statred before:
"Do you think that any of the people involved in the loss of life on the Sheffied sleep well at night?"

I did serve with several members of Sheffields surviving ships company and have a good idea of what I am talking about: the guys I met would not look for a scapegoat, they would look for the truth and leave it at that.

Nicely put.

I have scanned through the linked thread and the one question that springs to my mind is: To what meaningful purpose?

What good can come from this rather bitter contest to apportion blame? As you say; it belittles the sacrifice made. I tend to think that rather than a search for the truth, it is little more than an attempt to create a self gratifying conspiracy theory.

I think you will find that George doesn't want a Witch Hunt and, indeed, is supportive of all those aboard. It is the constant shortcomings of the MOD (N) and politicians in general at the time that need to be deeply scrutinised. In the same way that scrutiny is needed today in relation to Iraq and Afghanistan, to ensure our armed forces are NOT put in harm's way due SOLELY to the incompetence and self-engrandisement of our CIVILIAN elected representatives, who are only too willing to pass the "blame", if there is found to be BLAME, on to the "poor bloody infantry" rather than endanger their cosy, scummy, little lives of endemic corruption, lies and nose-in-the-trough "I'm alright Jack" complacency.
 

Clouseau

Banned
Fletch said:
I think you will find that George doesn't want a Witch Hunt and, indeed, is supportive of all those aboard. It is the constant shortcomings of the MOD (N) and politicians in general at the time that need to be deeply scrutinised. In the same way that scrutiny is needed today in relation to Iraq and Afghanistan, to ensure our armed forces are NOT put in harm's way due SOLELY to the incompetence and self-engrandisement of our CIVILIAN elected representatives, who are only too willing to pass the "blame", if there is found to be BLAME, on to the "poor bloody infantry" rather than endanger their cosy, scummy, little lives of endemic corruption, lies and nose-in-the-trough "I'm alright Jack" complacency.

While a tad too cynical for me, I take your point, but my reading of George's thread led me to that exact opposite conclusion: It is a witch hunt. In trying to uncover some dark conspiracy he gets frustrated by the ministry because he feels he's being stone-walled when actually there is no new inner truth to find.

As regards his belief that people are withholding information - does he realise how difficult and time consuming it is to reply adequately to RFIs? Does he not realise that, with due respect to the dead, people have got more current and pressing issues to deal with?
 
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