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The future of the CIS branch (Surface and Submarines)

Guns

War Hero
Moderator
Open ended discussion on where do you see the future of the CIS branch as Networks and Information Superiority requirements grow.
 

KD1983

Newbie
I spoke to a mate about this the other day who's at Collingwood, he mentioned it will be changing again decision may be made Dec (which year im not sure!). 2 options are, going full WE so it'll be for e.g POETCIS. Or getting split PO(C) and PO(IS) knowbody knows! I suppose with more and more IT type kit coming in the branch may go towards WE or even back to the old OM!
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Guns a lot will depend on how future ICS services are delivered to our platforms, and what services they consume. There is a lot of debate about making a real effort to move to wholly IP based services, reduce the need for HGM, develop common infrastructures across all platforms, implement MLS, separate applications from infra.

A large part of the thinking is to remove bespokery, keep solutions simple, reduce costs and to make admin./maintenance easier too.

Long way off though.
 

SEP86

War Hero
There is a lot of debate about making a real effort to move to wholly IP based services, reduce the need for HGM, develop common infrastructures across all platforms, implement MLS, separate applications from infra.
Long way off though.

There is no debate - we need to get onto IP ASAP. We are getting left behind. WD, I would be interested to hear the benefits of side of the argument that says we should stay on 64k stovepipes.

Guns - you are a mischief maker! But you knew I would bite.

As for the future of the branch, the WEs are all over it apparently. No need for us doddery old PWO(C)s any more.
 

Guns

War Hero
Moderator
SEP86 - I need to come in a chat on my return as I have been doing work on the role of the Warfare Officer in the Information Domain. Also you know Wave Dodger professionally, I think, and you will have had this conversation in the real world.

I am more interested in hearing from Junior Rates who are at the coal face at sea or in the Joint world. It is after all their future. Plus, obviously, Senior Rates.
 

OASIS4AX

Midshipman
SEP86, I don't think anybody is arguing we should maintain 64k stovepipes. We are slowly moving away from those types of systems. We are being held back by technical and contractual issues. The main problems being that we have not invested enough in next generation IP cryptos and that we are tied into an amazingly expensive PFI contract for SATCOM. These issues severely restrict our ability to use cheaper commercial or Allied SATCOM solutions.
 

SEP86

War Hero
OASIS - You are right, as you know. I was just intrigued by the fact that there is some 'debate' on the matter. PS - I deal with all of the issues you mention, almost every day. :)
 

GUNNY

Newbie
The whole changing of our branch in to the ET/WE world has come at an amazing bad time for our branch.
SDSR has now left us seriously short of PO (CIS) at sea and little promotion over the last 5 years from LH has left many exceptional LH's threaders and punted for either redundancy (none at LH) or just put there notice in. We have lost over 200 in the branch at AB level and since the debacle that was PCP the heirachy in the branch shot us in the foot i would hasten to add the majority of those responsable have now gone outside so what are we left with?
A warfare branch that doesn't give 2 hoots about the CIS department.
The WE branch forced to take us under there wing with no plan in place yet!
A CIS branch that feels like we are being pushed pillar to post - stuffed by Paradigm and other expensive PFP projects that leaves us relying on external agencies to sort out often simple problems (and not 24/7 supported).
What does the future intail i don't know but I do care - the best branch in the RN by far but supported often by muppets ashore (not the commcens i may add)
Any comments are welcome.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
There is no debate - we need to get onto IP ASAP. We are getting left behind. WD, I would be interested to hear the benefits of side of the argument that says we should stay on 64k stovepipes.

As for the future of the branch, the WEs are all over it apparently. No need for us doddery old PWO(C)s any more.

The debate is - "can we afford to move"; This isn't just in the deployed/battlespace but in the office space too. There are so many component parts of our current services that need wholesale replacement or upgrading and all of the changes are coming at the same time which simply makes progress unaffordable at the pace we'd need or would like.

In PR09 we had 25% taken from our future (2015 onwards) budgets for DII, DFTS, DHFCS, SKYNET and P2P, so immediately we have lost money for innovation and real step changes, noting that these contracts all come up for renewal circa 2015-2022, a lot in a short timeframe. The replacement programme has already had it's money slashed so thats a cut on a cut - a very worrying move.

Then the glue - crypto; The CIPHER programme has been declared unaffordable. We are in a very big mess and few people realise it!

Oddly, I don't see SK5 as an issue. Its cost model is pretty decent and having looked very closely at it and its alternatives I think we get a very good deal, better than I suspect we will get with any replacement.

SEP86, I wonder who you are? I worked with GUNS in NCHQ, did you?

Back on thread, manning and professional skills - I'm still waiting to see the WE plans for their Officer Corps now they've absorbed the legacy E(IS) cohort. There was a 'plan' that they'd use these people to develop a truly C4ISR skilled WE cohort and upskill pureblood WEs. That seems to have become a distant dream. I really don't think the WE branch knows what it's own vision is anymore.
 

SEP86

War Hero
The debate is - "can we afford to move"; This isn't just in the deployed/battlespace but in the office space too. There are so many component parts of our current services that need wholesale replacement or upgrading and all of the changes are coming at the same time which simply makes progress unaffordable at the pace we'd need or would like.

In PR09 we had 25% taken from our future (2015 onwards) budgets for DII, DFTS, DHFCS, SKYNET and P2P, so immediately we have lost money for innovation and real step changes, noting that these contracts all come up for renewal circa 2015-2022, a lot in a short timeframe. The replacement programme has already had it's money slashed so thats a cut on a cut - a very worrying move.

Then the glue - crypto; The CIPHER programme has been declared unaffordable. We are in a very big mess and few people realise it!

Oddly, I don't see SK5 as an issue. Its cost model is pretty decent and having looked very closely at it and its alternatives I think we get a very good deal, better than I suspect we will get with any replacement.

SEP86, I wonder who you are? I worked with GUNS in NCHQ, did you?

Back on thread, manning and professional skills - I'm still waiting to see the WE plans for their Officer Corps now they've absorbed the legacy E(IS) cohort. There was a 'plan' that they'd use these people to develop a truly C4ISR skilled WE cohort and upskill pureblood WEs. That seems to have become a distant dream. I really don't think the WE branch knows what it's own vision is anymore.

Absolutely spot on, but I still say we can't afford not to move if we want to be a first rate Navy.

Yes, I am in the same room as Guns used to be in - won't take you long to work me out. Now my turn to guess who you are!
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
SEP86 said:
Yes, I am in the same room as Guns used to be in - won't take you long to work me out. Now my turn to guess who you are!

Please tell me you're not about to be an FWO....

Or on leave after a foreign jaunt....

Anyway,if we were all on the floorplate together you know me, I was the good looking one!
 
Last edited:

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Absolutely spot on, but I still say we can't afford not to move if we want to be a first rate navy!

I don't think we can afford to be a first rate navy. I'm not sure the
country even wants a first rate navy. Don't you think its crazy that at the point that we are the smallest we've ever been (in modern times) we're trying to acquire the two biggest platforms even if it bankrupts the Navy and prejudices our chances of ever getting a balanced, versatile, fleet?
 

rn458scc

Badgeman
Good Evening All

I'm joining the RN in March, as a Communications and Information System Specialist. I've had a look through the thread and was wondering if there have been any developments on the future of the branch? Is it now part of the Weapons Engineering department, or is the branch still part of the Warfare department?

Thanks in advance.
 

SEP86

War Hero
It is being integrated into the WE branch as WE(CIS).

In my opionion though, the owner of the branch is less important than making sure that the functions are all carried out.
 

rn458scc

Badgeman
It is being integrated into the WE branch as WE(CIS).

In my opionion though, the owner of the branch is less important than making sure that the functions are all carried out.

Thank you for letting me know. Will that as far as you know cause any change in the role for CIS? Also as it's going to be part of the engineering branch does the pay grade also increase? (probably getting my hopes up on that one!)
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
The key is for this to work as a WE(CIS) is to train people properly
an WE(LET) will go on career course for about 2 years and they get vast amounts of training

will the CIS' be trained sufficiently in order to function in the world of WE?

yeah, right
 

rn458scc

Badgeman
The key is for this to work as a WE(CIS) is to train people properly
an WE(LET) will go on career course for about 2 years and they get vast amounts of training

will the CIS' be trained sufficiently in order to function in the world of WE?

yeah, right

This doesn't sound very promising! I would of thought, if CIS was moving to WE it would also merge into WE's training practices.
 
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