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Terrorism: are we bringing it on ourselves?

Maxi_77 said:
I am not saying that the radicals are not promoting this rather that the best tool to use against them is mainstream Islam, and to do that you have to get the radicals out of the Mosques, because whilst inside they will be in control. Also their leaders are not so interested in armageddon, rather the power preaching it gives.

Peter

Sorry dude, but the Koran and other Islamic text and interpretation still promotes the concepts of Qiyamah - Judgement Day, Al-Malhamah Al-Kubrah - Great War against the unbelievers and Imam Mahdi - The Saviour...An the more literal the interpretation, the equivocal the outcome, just look at the increase in Madrassas and mosques, something is drawing more and more people to this tale of Islam, it gives them certainty, when they see the world falling apart around them and the prophecies coming true. so who's side would you want to be on when it all goes pear shaped...Allah's of course.
 
Maxi_77 said:
I am not saying that the radicals are not promoting this rather that the best tool to use against them is mainstream Islam, and to do that you have to get the radicals out of the Mosques, because whilst inside they will be in control. Also their leaders are not so interested in armageddon, rather the power preaching it gives.

Peter

here is another thing that is starting to worry me. I consider myself a fairly open minded live and let live kind of guy. I took my kids to Woburn Safari park on Sunday, and as we walked round, my 8 year old said "look dad, nuns"

I looked round and there were 4 or 5 women in full burkhas....and my first instinct was i anger, the husbands were all dressed in trendy western fashions.....I never used to be like that. If that is the gut reaction from me, i hate to think what happens elsewhere....this is why things need to change. All the discussion groups in the world are not going to help unless these kind of gut reactions are not changed.

I was quite disgusted in my reaction, i'm sad to say.
 
imom1406 said:
Maxi_77 said:
I am not saying that the radicals are not promoting this rather that the best tool to use against them is mainstream Islam, and to do that you have to get the radicals out of the Mosques, because whilst inside they will be in control. Also their leaders are not so interested in armageddon, rather the power preaching it gives.

Peter

Sorry dude, but the Koran and other Islamic text and interpretation still promotes the concepts of Qiyamah - Judgement Day, Al-Malhamah Al-Kubrah - Great War against the unbelievers and Imam Mahdi - The Saviour...An the more literal the interpretation, the equivocal the outcome, just look at the increase in Madrassas and mosques, something is drawing more and more people to this tale of Islam, it gives them certainty, when they see the world falling apart around them and the prophecies coming true. so who's side would you want to be on when it all goes pear shaped...Allah's of course.

A bit like Revalations which also predicts a pretty apocaliptic end to life the universe and everything too. As to the growth of religious fervour in many parts of the world is this not just a repeat of the European religious revivals as industrialsiation took over.

Peter
 
It's an old tradition that will never be changed; out here women are the home makers, have children, clean and cook. Take my friend for example;

I was sitting around her house a few weeks back, her husband decided to crawl out of bed because his friend was coming over. They stood in the kitchen and he came in all cave man like;

Anca, cups are dirty, clean them and make frappes!

So she got up and did this, it's better to do it than argue she says. People forget how advanced the UK and USA are compared to the rest of the world and this can actually effect us in the long run.

So should we take note on how others live and run? Would this give us a better insight, who knows?
 
Maxi_77 said:
imom1406 said:
Maxi_77 said:
I am not saying that the radicals are not promoting this rather that the best tool to use against them is mainstream Islam, and to do that you have to get the radicals out of the Mosques, because whilst inside they will be in control. Also their leaders are not so interested in armageddon, rather the power preaching it gives.

Peter

Sorry dude, but the Koran and other Islamic text and interpretation still promotes the concepts of Qiyamah - Judgement Day, Al-Malhamah Al-Kubrah - Great War against the unbelievers and Imam Mahdi - The Saviour...An the more literal the interpretation, the equivocal the outcome, just look at the increase in Madrassas and mosques, something is drawing more and more people to this tale of Islam, it gives them certainty, when they see the world falling apart around them and the prophecies coming true. so who's side would you want to be on when it all goes pear shaped...Allah's of course.

A bit like Revalations which also predicts a pretty apocaliptic end to life the universe and everything too. As to the growth of religious fervour in many parts of the world is this not just a repeat of the European religious revivals as industrialsiation took over.

Peter

This is probably my final comment on this as i am geting depressed. There isn't another religion that has major elements of of trying actively to fulfill the prophesy!!
 
Maxi_77 said:
imom1406 said:
Maxi_77 said:
I am not saying that the radicals are not promoting this rather that the best tool to use against them is mainstream Islam, and to do that you have to get the radicals out of the Mosques, because whilst inside they will be in control. Also their leaders are not so interested in armageddon, rather the power preaching it gives.

Peter

Sorry dude, but the Koran and other Islamic text and interpretation still promotes the concepts of Qiyamah - Judgement Day, Al-Malhamah Al-Kubrah - Great War against the unbelievers and Imam Mahdi - The Saviour...An the more literal the interpretation, the equivocal the outcome, just look at the increase in Madrassas and mosques, something is drawing more and more people to this tale of Islam, it gives them certainty, when they see the world falling apart around them and the prophecies coming true. so who's side would you want to be on when it all goes pear shaped...Allah's of course.

A bit like Revalations which also predicts a pretty apocaliptic end to life the universe and everything too. As to the growth of religious fervour in many parts of the world is this not just a repeat of the European religious revivals as industrialsiation took over.

Peter

Just a last contextual point, up until march this year my company was on campus at the University of East London, which as you can imagine is a real melting pot of cultures, we used to get Gorgeous George Galloway speaking to the student body regularly.

sadly there was a large element there of young muslim youth, often wearing "soldier of islam " T shirts particularly after the London Bombing, i have rarely met a more xenophobic, racists and mysogenistic goup of people in my life, that also tends to colour my responses to these items.
 
imom1406 said:
Maxi_77 said:
I am not saying that the radicals are not promoting this rather that the best tool to use against them is mainstream Islam, and to do that you have to get the radicals out of the Mosques, because whilst inside they will be in control. Also their leaders are not so interested in armageddon, rather the power preaching it gives.

Peter

here is another thing that is starting to worry me. I consider myself a fairly open minded live and let live kind of guy. I took my kids to Woburn Safari park on Sunday, and as we walked round, my 8 year old said "look dad, nuns"

I looked round and there were 4 or 5 women in full burkhas....and my first instinct was i anger, the husbands were all dressed in trendy western fashions.....I never used to be like that. If that is the gut reaction from me, i hate to think what happens elsewhere....this is why things need to change. All the discussion groups in the world are not going to help unless these kind of gut reactions are not changed.

I was quite disgusted in my reaction, i'm sad to say.

Mind you is interesting that in many moslem countries there are strong womens movements against the veil never mind the burkha, yet in the west the wearing of such items is growing.

I equally feal anger as I from a personal viewpoint see such attire as a means of subjugation, althoough I am aware that many muslim women do wear it with pride.

Peter
 
Maxi_77 said:
imom1406 said:
Maxi_77 said:
I am not saying that the radicals are not promoting this rather that the best tool to use against them is mainstream Islam, and to do that you have to get the radicals out of the Mosques, because whilst inside they will be in control. Also their leaders are not so interested in armageddon, rather the power preaching it gives.

Peter

here is another thing that is starting to worry me. I consider myself a fairly open minded live and let live kind of guy. I took my kids to Woburn Safari park on Sunday, and as we walked round, my 8 year old said "look dad, nuns"

I looked round and there were 4 or 5 women in full burkhas....and my first instinct was i anger, the husbands were all dressed in trendy western fashions.....I never used to be like that. If that is the gut reaction from me, i hate to think what happens elsewhere....this is why things need to change. All the discussion groups in the world are not going to help unless these kind of gut reactions are not changed.

I was quite disgusted in my reaction, i'm sad to say.

Mind you is interesting that in many moslem countries there are strong womens movements against the veil never mind the burkha, yet in the west the wearing of such items is growing.

I equally feal anger as I from a personal viewpoint see such attire as a means of subjugation, althoough I am aware that many muslim women do wear it with pride.

Peter


Here is some interesting reading....i know it's from the US, but it is relevant. http://www.mille.org/scholarship/papers/ADAM.html

Regards

Mike
 
WM wrote."I strongly feel that opinion in this country at grass roots level isnt as liberal and we are not as culturally integrated as we are led to believe by policiticians and community leaders....we are just less inclined to air our views especially in the current PC climated for fear of being cast as a rascist, bigot, islamaphob, homophob the list goes on and on before being given the opportunity to air our views in a reasonable manner..!!"

That is my opinion too WM. I am not looking for a Biggoted racist party to vote for , just somebody who cares and will stand up for my culture and country.
If the Muslim community can't police its own radicals, then we shall have to do it for them!
BTW Peter,Imom, thankyou I greatly enjoyed your dialogue.
RoofRat
 
Maxi_77 said:
imom1406 said:
Maxi_77 said:
I am not saying that the radicals are not promoting this rather that the best tool to use against them is mainstream Islam, and to do that you have to get the radicals out of the Mosques, because whilst inside they will be in control. Also their leaders are not so interested in armageddon, rather the power preaching it gives.

Peter

Sorry dude, but the Koran and other Islamic text and interpretation still promotes the concepts of Qiyamah - Judgement Day, Al-Malhamah Al-Kubrah - Great War against the unbelievers and Imam Mahdi - The Saviour...An the more literal the interpretation, the equivocal the outcome, just look at the increase in Madrassas and mosques, something is drawing more and more people to this tale of Islam, it gives them certainty, when they see the world falling apart around them and the prophecies coming true. so who's side would you want to be on when it all goes pear shaped...Allah's of course.

A bit like Revalations which also predicts a pretty apocaliptic end to life the universe and everything too. As to the growth of religious fervour in many parts of the world is this not just a repeat of the European religious revivals as industrialsiation took over.

Peter

Any one else under the influence that the Islamic/Muslin religion is that of a peaceful one? I know I am, terrorist acts are counted in by Justificationists, a separate but damming part of this.

Keep in mind that the Roman's did exactly the same, obv with what they had.

Is this not a new aged reaction to the world?

This is the wrong group’s interpretation of the koura, people read what they want. Mormon’s/JW/ RC’s/prods, however, people over look this part of the affair.
 
safewalrus said:
It would appear that a lot of these terrorists actually have British Passports. Does not what they are doing amount to treason?

There can be only one answer to treason! A fathom of hemp and the long drop, without delay! Hang the b******s!

Then ship ALL their relatives down to the last distance cousin back to point of origin, as accomplices - if they complain that they have British Passports see above!

Do this to two or three and most of 'em will slide out of the country at great speed to try it on elsewhere, where they can get away with it!

No Surrender [and no Quarter either]!

When do we start mate , :twisted:
 
Think of any terrorist atrocity and then think why it happened. I cannot think of any instance which has not been brought on by western provocation.

A couple of possibles perhaps?:

1. Hizbollah was originally started to represent the views of the Shia minority of the Lebanon against the overwhelmingly more powerful Christian arabs of Beirut and Tyre.

2. To what extent can we really attribute the current sectarian violence in Baghdad on Western provocation? Obviously, we deposed Saddam who crushed the Shia and en-nobled the Sunni - however that original provocation turned both groups against the Western forces in-theatre. It has taken over 3 years for the groups to largely turn away from Western forces in Baghdad and focus almost solely on each other (see Baghdad forces losses '05 compared to '06 - attacks on coaltion forces have more than halved). Can this fratricide genuinely still be seen as a direct result of our initial regime change (vacuum)? I don't see how it can be. The terrorist atrocities of Baghdad today are summary execution of innocents based on family names and clan affiliations. This has, at worst, been enabled by the West's removal of Saddam, but certainly not provoked.

Any thoughts?
 
Just been trawling the BBC old items regarding Iraq theres some good stuff amongst it.


The 'in fighting ' is basically a civil war-- as you mention the invasion forces casualty rates have dropped significantly--
reason is that they have a supposed elected government now!!

However I think Civil war could be a wrong description its more of a tribal or religeous in fight.

Regarding the BBC news items.
Initial Bush/Blair reasons for invasion were the WMD's-no WMD's found
Change of tact reasons for invasion Bush /Blair war on terror-- US senate papers have now categorically stated that Iraq did not have any dealings with Al Qaeda -- Saddam H did not trust them and was trying to capture the AQ 2nd in command. The papers also confirm no Nuclear involvement or WMD's
So WTF are we still doing out there.
 
Initial Bush/Blair reasons for invasion were the WMD's-no WMD's found
Change of tact reasons for invasion Bush /Blair war on terror-- US senate papers have now categorically stated that Iraq did not have any dealings with Al Qaeda -- Saddam H did not trust them and was trying to capture the AQ 2nd in command. The papers also confirm no Nuclear involvement or WMD's
So WTF are we still doing out there

Good question!

I think the only way we (as a society and as the Armed Forces) can really go any way to 'making-up' for the poor decisions of our political masters, acting in our name whether we agreed at the time or not, is by making the best out of a bad situation.

The sad fact is, however, that we are in a phenomenally bad situation so 'the best' is more than likely not going to be that great at all. If, by retaining a strong military presence in Iraq for the next 18-24 months, we can prevent the entire country from descending into the sort of civil war that characterised our withdrawl from India then we should.

Why? Because we deposed Saddam, thus enabling the radcial elements to get the country into this mess in the first place. This was a decision we shall have to live with for many, many years to come. I never thought I'd find myself saying it, but Iraq is steadily approaching the stage where deposing Saddam will have done more harm than good.
 
dunkers said:
I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that recent terrorist atrocities have been brought on by ourselves: that they are our fault. 9/11 for example was said to be Osama bin Laden's retaliation for American aggression in Libya. Hezbollah is attacking Israel thanks to Israel's decades-old military presence in Lebanon, and its kidnapping of Lebanese and Syrians over the years (see George Galloway's recent Sky News interview). The USA is pointing the finger at Iran saying they are developing nuclear weapons (I don't think they are), which no doubt pisses them off and will result in further Asian hostility towards the West. The London tube bombings were undoubtedly a reaction to British presence in Afganistan (where a strict Sharia law was held - so it wasn't perfect in the eyes of westerners but it did keep the peace, and destroyed the opium crop). Ditto the Bali bombings.

Think of any terrorist atrocity and then think why it happened. I cannot think of any instance which has not been brought on by western provocation.

I propose that we keep ourselves to ourselves in this country and the terrorists will do the same, ie leave us alone. You never see a major country like China being attacked by terrorists do you?, guess why that is - because they don't interfere in middle eastern affairs.

Light blue touch paper and retire...

You don't see terrorism in China for 2 reasons:
1. Unless a westerner is killed by a suicide bomber the news would not be released.
2. The chinese have a wonderful justice system, they Chinese are so frightened by authority that the slightest hint of a terrorist would have been reported. The justice system would then dispose of him in the proper manner
 

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