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Telegraph: "MoD £2bn 'Cash Pile' Scandal As Thousands Of Troops Sacked"


Lantern Swinger
Not so sure I'd agree. You only have to scan the tabloids and their online forums to find support for the Forces and people have a longer memory than you may think.

I accept that Iraq an Afghanistan have probably taken their toll on the nations ability to reconcile with casualties and would be quite prepared to be vocal about opposing a future suggested intervention would it not be considered a popular move but the Syrian vote was many things but a reinforcement of that.

Firstly I don't believe Cameron needed parliaments approval, he retains the crown prerogative and could have made good the order from his own authority but I believed he played a political blinder by appearing to listen to the people. He knows the posture of UK forces, understands how ragged they are after 10+ years of Ops and understands the political merit of stepping down from Syria which allowed Obama to step back too. Games within games methinks.

"Multicultural and poorly educated UK", is that the broad population or just a segment?

I agree with you that there is massive & heartfelt support for our existing troops, but this support doesn't cross the line into more military spending.

"Multicultural & poorly educated UK"? yes in the densely populated city/metropolitan areas I believe there is a very poor standard of education & in the UK generally there is little understanding of, or interest in the military/defence use & requirements.

With regards to Cameron I'm not sure of the position on crown prerogative, I thought the rule was now boots on the ground couldn't be committed without a debate & a vote of approval in the HoP.

Imagine this "yes minister" scenario, because as a nation we're skint we'll tell the voting masses of "seniors" that over the next few years the NHS will go into meltdown, there is a high risk of the lights going out & we won't be able to maintain the gas supply, there's no chance of us funding extra rolling stock to get your offspring's to work, we're slashing pubic services like the police/fire resources to the bone, you're still going to have to sell your property to pay for your elderly care & your grand-children's school class sizes will go up to a minimum of 40 pupils ETC:

But the good news is we're going to commit £200b on replacing Trident, be ordering new ships that we can't afford to staff & run, a whole brigade of troops & equipment that we don't need & a new batch of aircraft that we can't afford to maintain, also we're letting our new friends the Chinese in to take over whats left of the utility section so they can get in on the act of ripping you off like all the other overseas owners, & we're still going to pay £56m/365 to the EU so the poor Greeks can continue to do very little, still have 18 public holiday days a year & still retire at 55 on a 66% index linked final salary pension ," not forgetting you will be working until you're 68 & beyond if that is you can find a job on a zero hours contract".

That should keep the voting mass of "seniors" on message & secure the vote in our favour.

Welcome to the early 21st century UK PLC.

I rest my very cynical case.
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Anybody remember the days of Public Information films? They made a fair job of showing what "defence" actually did with an in-built indication of why. With the year marking the first lot kicking off only months away, it shouldn't need the brains of an arch bishop to show a parallel. Having said that, it would probably be fed to the ballot box fodder as a gross folly and waste of men and material; not as something inevitable if we were to retain our prosperity and World influence.

Anyway, Public indifference is a whole new topic beyond a periodic underspend aberration.


Book Reviewer
Other regiments have accepted cuts like the Yorkshire regiment and 7 RHA, 23 Engineer Air Assault, and the SCOTS. What makes 2 RRF so distinctive?

Read the argument online - the claim is that it is politically biased because RRF are fully manned and have no trouble recruiting and hence are effective, other Rgts, are massively undermanned, have trouble with recruiting and yet have been saved.


Lantern Swinger
Read the argument online - the claim is that it is politically biased because RRF are fully manned and have no trouble recruiting and hence are effective, other Rgts, are massively undermanned, have trouble with recruiting and yet have been saved.

CGS has given as much information why certain battalions have to go

Future Army 2020 (15th May 2013)

Question 44 - why some battalions which are being abolished appear well manned;
The logic behind the Army’s decisions on which combat units to withdraw has been made public on a number of occasions, but it is worth repeating.
There were a number of criteria applied. These were: maintaining a regimental system which is largely regionally aligned; demographic sustainability of regiments according to projected regional supply of recruits in the 2020 timeframe; proportionality of outcome, with no cap badge deletions and no regiment losing more than one battalion in a re-organisation; balancing the whole infantry structure to maintain variety of roles and parity of opportunity of experience for officers and soldiers; taking account of previous decisions on mergers and deletions; historical manning performance; and ensuring a solution that the Army would see as fair and equitable.
Drawing on demographic data from the Office of National Statistics for the age cohort across the UK from which infantry recruits are drawn (15-29 age group), and taking account of historical trends in terms of the percentage of that cohort likely to join the Army, an assessment was made of which regiments were likely to be the least sustainable in the future if they retained their current structure. This work also included a comparison of each regiment’s historical outflow so the likely recruiting requirement could be determined.
This analysis showed that those regiments likely to be the least sustainable in future were the Royal Regiment of Scotland (predicted to be 1.75 battalions short), The Yorkshire Regiment (predicted to be 0.8 battalions short), The Mercian Regiment (predicted to be 0.56 battalions short) and the Royal Welsh Regiment (predicted to be 0.55 battalions short). It was therefore decided to remove one battalion from each of these regiments.
After the removal of these four battalions, and taking account of the criterion that there should be no cap badge deletions and no regiment losing more than one battalion, the method for predicting future sustainability became less statistically discerning. Therefore to determine the fifth battalion to be withdrawn required the application of criteria that went wider than future demographics.
Having discounted those regiments that were already losing a battalion, and those which were single battalion regiments, the choice came down to a battalion from one of the following: The Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment; The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment; The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (RRF); The Royal Anglian Regiment; and The Rifles. The Parachute Regiment having been excluded on the grounds of its specific role. Taking account of the need to maintain equity of opportunity across the Infantry Divisions, the Army decided that it should be the Queen’s Division (comprised of Princess of Wales’ Royal Regiment, The Royal Anglian Regiment and the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers) that lost a battalion; this was because it had six battalions in comparison to other Divisions that would be left with only four or five. From within the Queen’s Division, and taking account of historical manning performance, the RRF, with average historical undermanning of 13.3% since the previous reorganisation of the infantry in 2007, and being a regiment with two battalions, was therefore determined as the next appropriate regiment from which to withdraw a battalion.
The units withdrawn were therefore those which were judged to be the least sustainable in the 2020 timeframe and/or with the poorest historical recruiting performance. We recognise that some of those units were well manned at the time the decision was made. This is not surprising as recruits are allocated to regiments where there is a need i.e. those which are undermanned or which are due to deploy in the near future. In the case of the RRF, their manning improved as a result of Divisional manning priorities - the Princess of Wales’ Royal Regiment and the Royal Anglian Regiment’s battalions were already fully manned.

Every one pities battalions that have to go; I don't see why 5 SCOTS should go while others should stay for example--especially since it would be usefully towards 16th AA. So 2 RRF is well manned. It has it's history. But like others it is going. As I pointed out, other regiments are already cut and these regiments/units are more key frontline units or rapid reaction forces. Yet, no one argued to keep them unlike 2 RRF.
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