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Sufficiently Grown Up?

MattG-J

Newbie
Now within the RNR as a whole I can see the point of not promoting above LtCdr except on n acting bassis or however. I wold like to point out in what is left of my RNR equivalent branch which now allas only consists of Medical Officers I feel they can gain substansive promotions as they are regardless of the location doing the job that the RNR employs them for at the same time as doig it on Civvi street I feel that this subject will be with us a while though in 1 form or another.
 

bipod64

Midshipman
If I might my two penneth worth. The organisation is for too top heavy in both Officers and Ratings, and I suggest the organisation ought to be scaled back accordingly. There is no way on earth, unless you are an ex-regular, you are going to have the skills, professional and management, necessary to meeting the operational capabilities expected of senior rates and Officers. As suggested above, I believe only a small number of CPO and Lt Cdrs, and even fewer Cdrs is required to manage the specialisation teams. Common sence, big savings and more efficient of RNR resources. Seems straight-forward to me, but there are too many wanting that WO and Cdr prestige.
 

wysiwyg

Lantern Swinger
bipod64 said:
If I might my two penneth worth. The organisation is for too top heavy in both Officers and Ratings, and I suggest the organisation ought to be scaled back accordingly. There is no way on earth, unless you are an ex-regular, you are going to have the skills, professional and management, necessary to meeting the operational capabilities expected of senior rates and Officers. As suggested above, I believe only a small number of CPO and Lt Cdrs, and even fewer Cdrs is required to manage the specialisation teams. Common sence, big savings and more efficient of RNR resources. Seems straight-forward to me, but there are too many wanting that WO and Cdr prestige.

Simplistic to the nth degree!!
 

broadside

War Hero
wysiwyg said:
bipod64 said:
If I might my two penneth worth. The organisation is for too top heavy in both Officers and Ratings, and I suggest the organisation ought to be scaled back accordingly. There is no way on earth, unless you are an ex-regular, you are going to have the skills, professional and management, necessary to meeting the operational capabilities expected of senior rates and Officers. As suggested above, I believe only a small number of CPO and Lt Cdrs, and even fewer Cdrs is required to manage the specialisation teams. Common sence, big savings and more efficient of RNR resources. Seems straight-forward to me, but there are too many wanting that WO and Cdr prestige.

Simplistic to the nth degree!!

WYSIWYG - are you supporting or not supporting Bipod64?
 

Aldis

Lantern Swinger
bipod64 said:
If I might my two penneth worth. The organisation is for too top heavy in both Officers and Ratings, and I suggest the organisation ought to be scaled back accordingly. There is no way on earth, unless you are an ex-regular, you are going to have the skills, professional and management, necessary to meeting the operational capabilities expected of senior rates and Officers. As suggested above, I believe only a small number of CPO and Lt Cdrs, and even fewer Cdrs is required to manage the specialisation teams. Common sence, big savings and more efficient of RNR resources. Seems straight-forward to me, but there are too many wanting that WO and Cdr prestige.

And this is based on what evidence?
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
If you take a "typical" RN SO1 and a "typical" RNR SO1 - you will probably find that you can generally employ the RN body across a whole range of posts (staff through technical) within the RN and across the wider MOD, whereas you should be able to do the same with the RNR body except that they usually have significantly (and understandably) less experience and hence take longer to settle in and become as effective.

Note "typical", "probably" and "generally". There are some exceptionally good RNR Officers and some less so impressive RN Officers.

I'm not dismissing the RNR Officer community out of hand but I'd be tempted to agree with BIPOD to a degree. If you don't live and breath it 24/7/365 as a regular you have a greater wall to climb when you're dumped into a post. That said I know some Reservists who can do it....and some who plainly can't. 6 of 1...
 

broadside

War Hero
Wave Dodger - I tend to agree with that - it depends on the appointment or deployment but if you want to put an SO1 into a job where he is going to need to call on operational experience then the safe pair of hands will be RN.

If the job calls for management skills and a more generalist background then take your pick.

On the wider issue though it still doesn't call for the continued existence of SO1 and above RNR officers unless borne for a specific task.
 

Extras

Badgeman
airborne_artist said:
The TA has very few Lt Cols and above - not all TA battalion COs (substantive Lt Col post) are TA, as quite a few are Regular, and TA 1*s are as rare as.

Major is the best that 98% of TA officers can aspire to.

I'd be careful here matey. I've seen TA medical units with a full, TA Col as the CO + 4 Lt Col's as well. Professionally qualified officers (Dr's, Nurses, Vets, Lawyers) can promote very rapidly and untill recently that entire list would start off their military career as a Captain.

That said, the Army Medical service is a strange beast and I would never expect this to be the norm. However, this point does show that there are more Col's than one might expect and a surprising proportion of them are properly employed.
 

ZFWQ

Badgeman
There are 6 TA 1*'s and 1 TA 2*. The TA 1*'s hold very senior posts within the regular army taking posts from regular 1*'s. Also there are quite a lot of substansive TA Lt Cols, some also holding regular army posts whilst still being a TA officer (not in FTRS posts) . It is FORes's aspiration that Maritime Reserve OF5's and OF4's are integrated and hold regular posts in the same way as their TA counterparts and still do their regular job. The MR is changing drastically. The commitment required of an OF4/OF5 is extremely high and above that required from OF3/OF2. If the commitment is not there, they are binned (Rtd).
 

dunkers

War Hero
Let me get this right, there are TA 1 and 2* officers being expected to carry out their roles as if they were TA soldiers - i.e. holding down a civvie job as well? Surely not?

IMO the RNR needs to become an organisation much more similar to the TA. It is no longer a mass "reserve" but a pool of spare manpower. This will hopefully be reflected by structural changes in the Service, but will no doubt happen at a glacial pace, as usual.

There is no need for a reservist to differ from a regular except in terms and conditions of service. Hopefully once we get there we can bin the "separate service" mentality still retained by some Cold War dinosaurs.
 
Who's the new ComMarRes? Just curious, and frankly trying to navigate the RN website is like wading through treacle. A PM will do if it's not in the wider public domain....
 

ZFWQ

Badgeman
It is correct. The present 2IC of 2 Div is a TA 1*, daytime job an Advocate. The Army are working under the One Army banner and it does not matter whether you are TA or Regular. The further up the ladder they progress the more that is expected of them. How they balance their private lives and military lives are up to them. We can expect the Maritime Reserve to go the same way and it is already starting to happen at the OF5 level and being progressed to OF4.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
dunkers said:
There is no need for a reservist to differ from a regular except in terms and conditions of service.

I agree but think that as we move forward with new kit and working practises this will be increasingly difficult. Thats why USNR people tend to act as FTRS for long periods to pick up new skills/TTPs then be put to work. If we follow this path you'd see yourselves being called up (compulsory or not) more often than now.

A friend over from Canada popped in last night. He mentioned that due to the economic situation they were seeing more and more reserves taking up FTRS equivalent posts. The upshot is a lot of regulars are being miffed because posts they'd been lining up for were being taken by reservists who were effectively cherry picking. Interesting issue, I wonder if we'll see this in the RN. After all we have gaps to fill and people need work.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
There is definitely an upsurge in recruitment for mobilisation tours at the moment, with most plots being well manned as people find they have more time on their hands. FTRS slots will continue, but the number of real RNR personnel doing them will be low - IIRC the majority of FTRS slots filled are done by ex-regular personnel, who have the specialist skills needed to do the job.

I am very dubious about the idea of getting an OF4/5 to do an RN job - the Army can just about do it with 2 Div as its a regional division, where little of interest happens, and they send their 3rd or 4th eleven to man them - its a world away from a busy operational post. The RN has so few OF4/5 slots of this nature left now, that its hard to see where we could put someone and let them do their job as well.
 

broadside

War Hero
Purple_twiglet said:
There is definitely an upsurge in recruitment for mobilisation tours at the moment, with most plots being well manned as people find they have more time on their hands. FTRS slots will continue, but the number of real RNR personnel doing them will be low - IIRC the majority of FTRS slots filled are done by ex-regular personnel, who have the specialist skills needed to do the job.

I am very dubious about the idea of getting an OF4/5 to do an RN job - the Army can just about do it with 2 Div as its a regional division, where little of interest happens, and they send their 3rd or 4th eleven to man them - its a world away from a busy operational post. The RN has so few OF4/5 slots of this nature left now, that its hard to see where we could put someone and let them do their job as well.

Fully concur PT - whilst I applaud the sentiment of one navy I cannot see that shoehorning an RNR with a day job into an RN billet NOT on FTRS is going to work and in those few cases where the individual has the physical stamina to juggle 2 jobs at the same time stand by for the fallout from Civ-Mil push and pull plus domestic strife.

It cannot be done and anyone who thinks it can is deluding themselves!
 

McGrew

Midshipman
I would like to put my opinion in. My opinion of course and most of which has been mentioned in one form or another already on this thread.

Something that I really struggle to reconcile on the officer side is the downright rank inflation that seems to exist. I appreciate that there is a subtle difference between a midshipman and a 2Lt in the TA down to historic reasons and something to do with age. The difference is not important since equality exists between Sub Lt and Lt (Army). In the RNR we have made ourselves the same as the RN and it appears that completion of basic training results in promotion to Lt. Indeed I have seen officers coming through the system picking up a second ring after a couple of years, two weeks at Dartmouth, two weeks at sea and maybe a professional course and Bob’s your uncle and apparently competent. Compare this with the TA where operational billets are being filled out in Iraq and Afghan by subalterns. …and these subalterns are worthy of the job since they have a little more than the experience than is highlighted in the RNR training stated. Captain is a rank where they are promoted on merit, some even have a couple of op tours, not by passing through the sausage machine collecting badges.

So what is my point? Let’s bring everyone down a rank or two to really reflect the experience and level of military competence that we really have. I cannot help but compare the RN Commander and the RNR Commander. The former has about 20 years experience, rigorous training, an exacting selection procedure and maybe command of a frigate or destroyer. The latter, while undoubtedly keen may have knocked out 20 years training made up of 2 week training sessions and a number of weekends, while individually very intense, really do not compare with the full time counterpart. I cannot help but think that we are architects of our own downfall where we grossly over promote people and put them in positions where they struggle to even tread water, yet alone excel. Although I appreciate that there are examples that might contradict this.

There is little doubt that the RNR officer is keen, the evidence normally exists through the fact that they have a civvie job to hold down too. Now I would expect a high flying officer in the RNR to have a high flying job in civvie street, higher management, maybe running their own successful business, managing large budgets and workforces. Now I appreciate that I may be stereotyping and there will be plenty of instances where I can be disproved, but IMHO I cannot help but think that the senior people in the RNR are often those that have not proved themselves outside, had they joined the RN full time they would be passed over but due to a confusion between time expended rather than quality, a large quota of people who can be promoted, the fact that people do not leave results in the 85 (not 40) commanders that exist within the RNR. To be fair if you have a high powered job outside then you probably have not got time to expend to the RNR anyway. I am yet to meet a RNR senior officer who I am truly impressed by who is realistically worth their rations (and a salary of £60,000 plus).

(……and while I am on my soap box why oh why oh why do people leave the RN passed over in their rank (and I include CPOs who never got their warrant) seem to appear in the RNR and get promoted? Surely if they were not good enough in the full time service then they surely cannot be good enough in the RNR? Or am I missing something?)

I just wonder if the new commodore might be reading this. I hope so. Here is my suggestion – let’s stop all the fluffing of egos through gross over promotion. Let’s be reasonable and cap it all at Lt Cdr level (and a lot less of those please) where we can properly contribute to the party.

Just off to put my flak jacket and helmet on…..
 

dunkers

War Hero
Fair comments McGrew. So there are 85 reservist commanders and 13 of them command units. How many of the remaining 72 does CMR employ? Hence how many of them are surplus?
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
I agree with a lot of McGrews comments. The current structure is a relic of the days when we had nearly 7000 people, lots of ships and nearly 30 RTCs. We were effectively a private navy and people did very little with the RN. We needed seniors to run us, and we needed people of certain ranks to do certain jobs. Although promotion was easier than the TA, the drill night focus, and the need for seagoing on an MSF meant that we had a lot more experience then than the manuals suggest.

I remember the old Ops HQ SLT - LT requirement - do OPS HQ foundation course, do 2 weeks at sea and then you are a LT. This meant that you could join the RNR, do your basic training and be a LT with less than 20 weeks training in total.

Nowadays, I see little need for RNR Cdrs, except for truly inspirational people who we are growing to have at the top. We can all think of at least one SO1 or Capt who we'd like to be Cdre RNR, but frankly I don't think we should do this anymore. Have the odd Cdr, but cap it there, and let us work at training to do our operational roles. If you want to get lots of brass and little risk, then join the Sea Cadets as an AI, and help them do good work and get a uniform too...
 

wysiwyg

Lantern Swinger
There may be a requirement for RNR Cdrs at battlestaff level where the reservist has the specialist knowledge which the regulars do not.
 

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