Submarine dolphins

#1
The issue of ' scaled dolphins ' has been raised again on another submarine web site with the usual black catting . My understanding of the ' scaled dolphins ' is that the scaled dolphins are heraldic dolphins as with many UK designs , based on hundreds of years of tradition.
 
#2
hobbit said:
The issue of ' scaled dolphins ' has been raised again on another submarine web site with the usual black catting . My understanding of the ' scaled dolphins ' is that the scaled dolphins are heraldic dolphins as with many UK designs , based on hundreds of years of tradition.[/quote]

Hobbit, that may be so but as one of the first recipients circa 1970/1 (First issued July 71 according to Google) when the Coxswain slung a set at me across the forward mess I have always thought the scaly design, not used by any other Navy in the World, was a sick joke played by General Service Officers at MOD on "The Trade". I only ever wear mine at occasions where it is expected and feel much prouder of my HM Submarines cap tally that I had to work for than my scaly gold brooch.

Nutty

PS a search on google images of Dolphins and Coats of Arms reveald that all the representations of Dolphins that had the dolphin bill and not thick fish type mouth did not have scales.
 
#3
The Royal Navy did not have a submarine badge until April 1958. Prior to that time the only distinguishing piece of uniform kit was the cap ribbon of ratings in "square rig" which was embroidered with "HM SUBMARINES" in place of the usual ship's name. Officers, and ratings dressed in the "fore and aft rig", bore no outward symbol denoting their special service.

The original RN submarine badge, which could be worn by qualified Canadian personnel, was for ratings only. It was not popular. The typical embroidered cloth badge was produced in gold wire or red thread on a navy background and blue thread on white for tropical kit. It looked most peculiar and the men quickly dubbed it "the sausage on a stick". This badge was intended to be worn on the right sleeve, just above the cuff, or directly above a chief's centre button. Wearing of this badge was optional. It was never officially issued and had to be purchased from slops by the individual. It was officially withdrawn in 1964. The present day RN submariners' badge made its first appearance in July 1971.





http://www.saoc-central.com/Dolphins.html
 
#4
Nutty , this is one brief description from an heraldic site for what it's worth . Heraldry , being an ancient art or skill , depicted many creatures different to the true appearance of the beast . The dolphin in heraldry was considered the king of the fish despite it not being a fish . Also , I believe other submarine badges have scaled dolphins . I'm not trying to make an issue of this but looking for a logical explanation for what appeared /appears to be a F/U




Dolphin - swiftness, diligence, and love(dolphin depicted having scales)

Dolphin - (dol'-fin) The dolphin is heraldically a fish, irregardless of what it may be zoologically or astronomically. When used as a charge it may be extended and natant or hauriant, etc. Fishacre of Fishacre bore "Gules, a dolphin natant argent." The dolphin was the emblem of the Dauphins of France. [See also DAUPHIN.]
 
#5
hobbit said:
Nutty , this is one brief description from an heraldic site for what it's worth . Heraldry , being an ancient art or skill , depicted many creatures different to the true appearance of the beast . The dolphin in heraldry was considered the king of the fish despite it not being a fish . Also , I believe other submarine badges have scaled dolphins . I'm not trying to make an issue of this but looking for a logical explanation for what appeared /appears to be a F/U



quote]

Hobbit

We seem to have three explanations:

1. It is a acceptable design in line with Heraldic custom. Most certainly the line the MOD of 1970 or 2007 will take.
2. It was a Feck Up
3. It was a conspiracy by Skimmer Officers in MOD assisted by Civil Servants to take the piss out of "The Trade" as they were not going get a pretty badge/brooch/medal to wear.

Since the late 80's there seems to have been a proliferation of General Service Medals, Malayan Service Medal, Veterans Badge etc. Most Servicemen/Veterans seen to like these baubles and glitter .

IMHO it is just another conspiracy theory like JFK but as it is obvious I am not a fan of bits of glitter for just being there I will stay with the conspiracy theory. As with the "Tradition" of putting the dolphins into a glass and drinking it in one catching said dolphins in teeth certainly did not start in the RN until mid 1970's at the earliest. So with a Service that is over 300 years old, does that make it a tradition or just a modern practice?

Nutty

PS If you are awarded a GSM and then fail to wear it on your No1s at Divisions/Parades etc do you commit a disiplinary offence. If so Joss come and get me I will plead guilty and ask for some TIC's.
 
#7
AfterSSE said:
Are you strictly talking Commonwealth Dolphins or maybe your thinking of these:

Americans scaled everything...
Yep , was referring to them thanks , haven't mastered the photo bit yet . I was/am trying to justify the RN dolphins with scales however and I am satisfied with the heraldry explanation . Do you think it answers the scaled dolphin , as in heraldry the dolphin is a ' fish ' with scales . No big deal but being inquisitive I like to know . Fascinating stuff that heraldry . thanks again .
:thumright:


I left the Service prior to the RN dolphins being issued so I don't know if they , the dolphins , are a ' permenant loan ' item or what . I believe they should be and engraved with name and number and date of issue/ award to make them personal .
 

Kurtz

Lantern Swinger
#8
onDolphins are not permanent, nor are they itemised in kit record books - you just go in to slops and ask for them (then sell 'em on e-bay to badge collectors or put them on the back of the headboard at yer aunties...).
Like the idea of having them engraved with name / service no.
 
#9
disgruntled-at-rn said:
onDolphins are not permanent, nor are they itemised in kit record books - you just go in to slops and ask for them (then sell 'em on e-bay to badge collectors or put them on the back of the headboard at yer aunties...).
Like the idea of having them engraved with name / service no.

Cheers D-A-R , yeah it would give them a more personal touch and less likely to become ' for sale ' on e-bay . More respect is appropriate too for those in the ' Trade ' . Although not one for B/S when in the mob I can afford the luxury of recommending a ' passing out parade ' for the presentation of the ' dolphins ' , ( flood "Q" 500 feet )
 
#10
Depends on where the info comes from, but all I could find explained the "Dolphin" as such:

Fish are fairly simple to blazon. There are only four basic postures for a fish. However, there is one "fish" that is a bit different--the dolphin. Normally we think of a porpoise as a dolphin. In actuality, there is an heraldic dolphin that is classified as a "monster". The heraldic dolphin is blazoned the same way as any other fish, however, when drawn, they are depicted in a reverse "S-curve" shape.
http://www.coatofarms-shop.com/AniBlaz.html#sea


It isn't really a "fish" but more a "monster"...
now I know on some occasions we (submariners) can be considered monsters, but gee I thought Dolphins were kinda cute...
 
#11
Thanks After SSE , yes the depth and detail of Heraldry is unlimited and interesting . In regard to the Dolphin I believe in most references the creature is viewed more favourably in heraldry and not a ' monster ' . Great to watch them from the casing when in passage routine through the tropical seas in fine weather ,

:thumright:
 
#12
We had a great shot (and pics) from the search scope of 3 dolphins in the Caribbean, (will try to find the pic) it turned out excellent.

Yeah whenever we run on the top down in the Caribbean we get lots of visitors trying to outrun us (LMAO, outrun an O Boat on the surface, I think they were toying with us....)
 

Kurtz

Lantern Swinger
#13
Nav Chief on Vengeance recorded dolphins 'playing' around the periscopes when we were on INDEX about 5 years ago, recorded it onto dvd's and set some soothing classical music to it - got a copy at home if anyone's interested? Black-cats your still phots, AftSSE!!
 
#14
Nothing to do with ' boats ' but still on the dolphin subject . Small isolated community in Western Australia , Monkey Mia , allegedly named after a ship named the Monkey based there years ago . Here the dolphins thrive and have close contact with visitors . The dolphins are not enclosed and free to come and go . People feed them of course but a notice on the beach advises to accept fish from the dolphins when they bring one to the beach for the visitors . yes , a terrific experience of being close to these beautiful creatures . On our visit my wife was totally unprepared for a huge dolphin that beached itself near us in ankle deep water , truly awesome .

:nemo:
 

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