Social Conscience

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by sgtpepperband, Jul 25, 2007.

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  1. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    "First they came…" is an evocative poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. A similar sentiment evident in today's society.

    [align=center]When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

    More info here.
  2. I've seen that one, but, do you really think it that grim?
    Or, am I just an optimist :thumright:
  3. FlagWagger

    FlagWagger Book Reviewer

    Well the current mob in power are doing a damn good job at ruling using fear rather than rationale objective judgement which has resulted in a very polarised view - you're either with the "Bush/Bliar er Broon" axis or you're against them - the wider Muslim community are really suffering as a result; there's an extremely unequal extradition treaty in place allowing extradition to the US on grounds far weaker than they would permit; Broon is trying to resurrect the extension of imprisonment with charge/trial for terrorist suspects. Is that enough to be going on with?
  4. Oh Flags, trust me I am with you on this one.
    This latest nonsense about extending the time for imprisonment without charge is very hard to digest. It is called internment and it didn't work last time.
    As for the U.S. don't even go there with me.
    I just try to keep most of my posts half way polite, which is not at all the real me.
    In any case as an ex RO I am hardly likely to disagree :thumright:
  5. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    I wasn't trying to make a political statement with the post, but highlighting our social duty to stick up for the underdog, because one day WE might become one... :roll:
  6. I think one point needs to be made clear with the 28 day issue, it's the police who want it extended and I for one am all for it. Maybe you would like to wait until their plans reach fruition and they kill and maim our fellow citizens. As for ‘if your not with us your against us’, the Muslim community need to be with us and root out and report the cancer in their midst.
  7. I think the snag is that our relationship with society is inevitably a political statement, particularly in the current environment where there are efforts to intrude ever further into our private lives.
  8. Couldn't agree more. I've been there and it ain't nice..
  9. If you go down that road then where do you draw the line?
    The police always seek more power, it is up to the legislature to make sure that any extension of power granted is for damn good reasons.
    We IMO should make our society more open, more welcoming and show those that oppose these freedoms that we will not be cowed.
    By doing otherwise then won't they have won?
    There is nothing the terrorists can do to us that is not equivalent to throwing pebbles at a castle.
  10. Thank for tyhis Sarg... I have been trying to find this for about three months. Well done. Perhaps it will get some of the more radical members start to think about how inaction and a blinkerd view can lead to a stituation , which we will all regret ...
  11. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    No probs. I read it in a recent copy of Amnesty International magazine, and thought it would make a change from the demi-xenophobic rants on here by the Duty Armchair Dictators...

    Whether it will have any effect on the said 'radical members' is another matter - but I'm not holding my breath... :roll:
  12. You will all be able to sleep easier in your beds in the knowledge that I am always on duty.

    sussex2, of course we we will not be cowed by these psychopaths we are British but that alone does not stop them from committing foul murder.
  13. The brits are not alone in this. The resolve of the Spanish people, a nation I have a great respect for, to continue, and indeed expand their freedoms, after the slaughter on the suburban trains in Madrid, has been a great lesson to many including myself.
    We've got ourselves involved in an awful mess which is bound to have repurcussions.
    Strange world it is...
  14. I would rather see a suspect detained and then released once cleared than to see a suspect held for a short time then released for want of enough time to gather sufficient evidence, who then goes on to cause mass murder. I don't believe for one moment that the police pick up Muslims off the streets willy nilly, on the off chance that they just might be involved in something. They haven't got the manpower and there's all those reports to write. They have to follow up what they believe to be good intelligence. If however, there is a case to answer where the police have detained someone wrongly, someone who is totally innocent and where the police and intelligence agencies have made a big FUBAR, they should then be adequately compensated.
  15. If the police pick someone out for 'arrest 'and 'holding for questioning'
    then surely the initial reason for the arrest should be a good enough reason for bringing charges .

    The danger is the police powers will become overpowering---
    we want you for questioning ----------come and spend a month with us
    and it isn't just for terrorists .

    Apart from that the shootings and wrong address raids the police seem to be doing a lot of these days the intelligence gathering is probably faulty anyway.

    :nemo: :nemo:
  16. In any nation were only the Police have guns, that is a Police state! thanks to the great socialist movement (or the claptrap that covers for it today - nu labor) we in this country are in that situation! In some ways I agree with it (after all is not the soldier (sailor, airman) the second row policeman to defend the government (now who had the silly idea he was there to defend the people?)
  17. No this cannot in any way be called internment, the H blocks were internment and they didn't work.

    This hopefully would give the police the time they need to actually prove something against whoever they hold in detention and help to keep us safer.. :thumright:
  18. Sounds reasonable enough Jimmy, but history records numerous instances of 'The State' getting out of control in response to real or imagined threats. I can remember how uncomfortable our US allies were about Northern Island Internment, then behold; the home of the brave and land of the free gives birth to that little summer camp down
    in Cuba. Hardly what the rest of the world would call a 'measured response!'

    Hello muddah, hello faddah.
    Here I am in, Sunni camp Delta.
    Ali's lost his mind, Hamid's snoring.
    Three years on, and life is really rather boring

    I was visiting with Uncle Achmed
    When soldiers found me asleep in bed
    You remember old Aunt Yasmillah?
    Being dragged from her bed did nearly kill her

    All the soldiers hate the CIA
    All the CIA hate the DIA
    And the DIA hate the FBI
    But they say the interrogation's worse if you have to fly!

    Now I don't want, this should scare ya
    But my cage mate, has malaria
    He was picked up by military cordon
    And had all his finger-nails taken out in Jordan!

    Take me home, oh muddah, faddah
    Take me home, I didn't make fattah
    Don't leave me out in Cuba where
    I'm losing sight of all that's good and fair.
    Take me home, I'm feeling rather lost
    I'll stay away from that dodgy mosque!
    Oh please don't make me stay, Hamid fears
    They might keep us here for three more years!

    Dearest faddah, darling muddah,
    How's my precious little bruddah
    Let me come home, write my MP
    I would even let Aunt Muna hug and kiss me.

    Wait a minute, the guards are smiling.
    Making jokes about me going travelling.
    Rotors are turning, seems I'll be flying
    Some place where the Constitution ain't applying!

  19. If someone is arrested under suspicion of causing an offence the police may not have sufficent time to gather all the necessary evidence, much of which can be hidden away in encrypted files on computer hard drives which need time to be cracked, before being forced to either charge or release. Don't forget that it's the CPS that decides whether a suspect is brought to trial (although any RRers that are old bill/legal eagles will surely correct me if any of my statements are incorrect).

    The problem is that under current legislation, once a person has been charged the police are no longer allowed to continue questioning them. It is that further questioning that may uncover details of further plots & plans, other involved persons and groups etc.

    Agreed. Safeguards must be built into the system to limit the chance of this happening, although undoubtedly there may be the odd occasion when the system will fail.

    I wouldn't say that the police do actually shoot many people, neither do they raid too many wrong addresses. It's just that on the rare occasion that they have done it grabs the headlines for weeks on end.

    As for faulty intelligence, sure some of it will be wrong. There are no guarantees that everything they uncover is 100% correct. It's only when questioning suspects that they can determine what is right and what's wrong. You don't see it splashed across the newspapers every time the police and security services foil a plot, when the intelligence has proved correct, again just on the odd occasion when some mistake has been made that it gets splashed across the media.

    As I said previously "If however, there is a case to answer where the police have detained someone wrongly, someone who is totally innocent and where the police and intelligence agencies have made a big FUBAR, they should then be adequately compensated."

    True, that was especially the case in Northern Ireland a number of years ago. But we are not talking about internment here, just extending for a period of four weeks the length of time a suspect may be held for questioning, bearing in mind all the hoops that the police will have to jump through to satisfy the legal process. Listening to Gordo the Broon in his statement to the commons yesterday, a requirment will be that the police will have to submit a report and a statement to the House every seven days. It seems to me that it will be tightly controlled and only applied on rare occasions.

    Whilst I am all for individual human rights, I am more for the rights of the majority of the people in this country. That is why we have a political process whereby if you wish to change something, you do so by political campaign and majority voting. I also have my own individual right, and that is the right to go about my lawful business, and not to be blown up on a tube train, on a bus, at an airport, at a nightclub or anywhere else that I am entitled to be. If a couple of weeks inconvenience happens to someone who is suspected of wishing to carry out these crimes, and it results in preventing those things from happening, I am all for it.
  20. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Hmm, I see my thread has been hijacked to make a political point, but as a Policeman (a Reggy, but still bound by the Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984) I feel people are a little misguided about grounds for arrest and custody.

    In layman's terms, arrest is the lawful deprvation of a person's liberty, primarily to prevent the commision of other offences. Custody is only justified when you are required to obtain evidence or question a suspect about his involvement in an alleged offence. You do not detain someone just because he's "a bit dodgy", or to "teach him a lesson".

    The purpose of the interview is to obtain the suspect's account o his involvement in the alleged offence - not to obtain a confession, or to make his story fit your theory or the charges. The interview must be terminated when you believe you have sufficient evidence against the suspect; if it continues it could be contrued as oppressive.

    A person is not necesarily charged post-interview; there might be further evidence required based on his interview. He is only charged when there is sufficient evidence to support a prosecution, and it is in the interests of justice to prosecute.

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