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Should the voting age be lowered to 16 ?

Ageing_Gracefully

War Hero
Moderator
Review Editor
Book Reviewer
Why can't they leave the kid's alone and let them enjoy their youth, it don't last all that long after all.

Whether they are old enough to make a considered judgement is immaterial, let them grow up in their time, not ours.

As to age, there are people on this site and ARRSE who are well over 21 and I wouldn't trust them to take the dog for a walk, never mind vote!
 

Dredd

War Hero
Super Moderator
Hmm, seems I am out of touch with some of the views expressed here.

The 16+ voting will be a reality here in the Frozen North, at least for the Neverendum next year. However, having allowed it for that there will be pressure to allow it for the local elections, and presumably for the Holyrood elections as well. Only a matter of time before it spread to the National elections really.

For some of the reasons already stated by others, I was opposed to this initially. In addition to that, I thought it was a cynical ploy by wee Eck and his cronies who may be assuming that the youngsters would be more bright eyed and bushy tailed enough to actually believe the fantasist pish that comes out of the YesNP propoganda machine and would overwhelming vote for this Nirvana being offered to them.

But I work with kids and I realised something. By 16, quite a few are well switched on, mature (for their age) and most importantly, able to come to their own reasoned decisions about things. Some are total mong tards. And it struck me that, of the adults I know, the youngsters were really just a reflection of society over all - some will vote because they want to, some because they feel they have to and some won't bother at all. And that has no age boundary. A twat 16 year old voting for a particular political party "cause my da did" is no different from a 40 year old doing the same thing, and they will continue to do so.

But what really pulled me over to the side of supporting this initiative was the survey done on 16 & 17 year olds asking how they would vote next year - and with little surprise (and just a bit of relish as I smirked at the angst it would cause in the YesNP campaign bunker) they were overwhelmingly against separatism, in proportions very similar to the current populace surveys.

Let them have their say. They will only make up an additional 5% or thereabouts of the overall suffrage anyway. There are more positives than negatives to be gained.
 

MG Maniac

War Hero
Interestingly if your local NHS Trust is a Foundation Trust they recruit a "board" of people to have a say in the running of the hospital from age 11 ... OK perhaps not as important as voting for the government of the country however I really cannot see how an 11yr old has enough savvy to influence the running and orgsanisation of a large hospital Trust.

Think there are fors and against in the "vote at 16" debate and I think it depends on which side of the fence you happen to sit and most 16yr olds would probably be influenced by the political influences of their parents, their immediate envirionment and perhaps their location within the country (north / south divide) thus would they just be following the masses rather than having their own informed opinion. Is it a good idea?? ... well several posters have said already that there are people out there over 21 who should not be allowed to go out on their own let alone vote and yes there are some 16 yr olds out there that are already politicaly savvy and will probably go on to become politicians in later life. (Didn't Haigh address the Conservatives as a 16 yr old young conservative??). The trouble is how do you split out the politically savvy from the numptys who still want to play with their Action Man.

Yes it would help if politics were taught at schools as a main stream subject ... there always used to be a Politics GCSE (probably still is) however I suspect this is one of the "opt in" subjects and then only in certain curriculums.

Personally I agree with AG and let kids be kids and leave the voting age at 18.
 

Dredd

War Hero
Super Moderator
The trouble is how do you split out the politically savvy from the numptys who still want to play with their Action Man.

The same way the adults do MGM - they sort themselves out as the latter won't bother to exercise their right anyway. Such is life in a "mature" democracy.

I do not spend a lot of time worrying about the machinations of the Westminster village or Holyrood swamp. My politics is based more on principle than immediacy, and I vote accordingly, but if I am persuaded by a certain argument then I can change that vote. And the schools are closed at the time (due to there being an election on) so they are at a loose end anyway!

It is voluntary, not compulsory. Those who wish to vote can do so. Those who don't won't. Those who are going (if Darwanism doesn't get to them first) to grow up to be the tards-that-walk-amongst-us will have no real impact on the overall result anyway. This is for those who want the right to have their say and be recognised for it, thereby encouraging them to become and continue to be more engaged citizens because it will develop their sense of self-worth. But what it won't do is bring up a tidal wave of adults in the future who are politically engaged because the voting age was lowered to the school leaving age. Any polly that thinks that deserves to be where they are - locked away in an anachronistic Palace and let the rest of us get on with real life.
 
Hippy types at university? They are as rare as hen's teeth these days. Most uni students today are hedonistic, drunken, chemical imbibing shaggers, male and female, and don't give a green gob about politics.
 
G

guestm

Guest
Hippy types at university? They are as rare as hen's teeth these days. Most uni students today are hedonistic, drunken, chemical imbibing shaggers, male and female, and don't give a green gob about politics.

Not true. The student populations of Newcastle, Edinburgh and Bristol at least still have their fair share of unwashed, Che T-shirted revolutionaries, baggy jeaned, hole-peppered jumper clad stoners and smarmy turtle necked lifers.
 

Rachelthree

War Hero
Hippy types at university? They are as rare as hen's teeth these days. Most uni students today are hedonistic, drunken, chemical imbibing shaggers, male and female, and don't give a green gob about politics.

B'llocks. For a start it is possible to be and do all of those things and play an active role in politics or at the least take an active interest. I think many people would be surprised if they actually saw how a university functioned and the students themselves, if you yourself have been a student lately then i feel it is appropriate to apologise as you must have been unfortunate enough to attend an institution not representative of much of the country in that regard. Attendance to 'protests' around the country are always well attended and there are not really any notable perks to attending other than going as you want to be involved. Student politics/council and relations between SU's & local governments run meetings which are highly involved and a lot of people volunteer alot of their time to these, the same with the party affiliated socities which debate topical issues and so forth. It is not wholly uncommon to find students campaigning and running in local elections, and the annual sabb elections which may be the first intro for some to participating in the democratic process is valuable and well recieved. Like any sub-sections of society there are those that dont give a fog, but student political involvement is thriving, even if the stereotypical image of hippy students ain't.
 
I suspect that there may be a fundamental difference between me and others about the meaning of the term "hippy". Also, universities are nowhere near as politicised as they were in the 60s and 70s, or even the 80s. Political groupings in universities are generally small, thus their activities have little impact on society. There is little appetite for informed political discourse amongst the majority of students. Even the NSU is politically pragmatic in the interests of students and has little to do with mainstream political thought and debate.
 

fishhead

War Hero
When the time came for my two kids to have their first vote they were very keen and went off excitedly waving their voting cards. They returned half an out later moaning about the queue and quite underwhelmed with the experience. This was in 1997 and I'm fairly certain neither has bothered since. So this IMO will what will happen should the voting age be lowered, a sudden burst of enthusiasm followed by years of apathy.
 

Rachelthree

War Hero
I suspect that there may be a fundamental difference between me and others about the meaning of the term "hippy". Also, universities are nowhere near as politicised as they were in the 60s and 70s, or even the 80s. Political groupings in universities are generally small, thus their activities have little impact on society. There is little appetite for informed political discourse amongst the majority of students. Even the NSU is politically pragmatic in the interests of students and has little to do with mainstream political thought and debate.

To be fair i used the term flippantly and so yeah probably not in the way most people think of them. I guess it differs at different unis, not claiming that the one i went to was full of politic enthusiasts who spent time jossing over politics; but the societies, student council etc was extremely active and reached those via social media who perhaps wouldnt take an interest otherwise. Also close ties with the local council as there are a lot of complex issues between the uni and the community, and as such lots of people get involved as they are affected by it. But yeah alot of students dont care but there are a sizable number out there. Not sure how it differs to the 70s and 80s as i was still an egg nervously awaiting evacuation time.
 

Wightsparker

War Hero
Voting at 16

To be fair i used the term flippantly and so yeah probably not in the way most people think of them. I guess it differs at different unis, not claiming that the one i went to was full of politic enthusiasts who spent time jossing over politics; but the societies, student council etc was extremely active and reached those via social media who perhaps wouldnt take an interest otherwise. Also close ties with the local council as there are a lot of complex issues between the uni and the community, and as such lots of people get involved as they are affected by it. But yeah alot of students dont care but there are a sizable number out there. Not sure how it differs to the 70s and 80s as i was still an egg nervously awaiting evacuation time.


With respect, how exactly does this relate to the proposal to lower the voting age to 16?
 
G

guestm

Guest
. Political groupings in universities are generally small, thus their activities have little impact on society. .

A large proportion of those arrested in the London riots and during the 'retake' actions were politically motivated students. They sure had an impact.
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Many universities today are not the political hotbeds of activism they once were. In my experience, the description of today's student by Bandy_E is not accurate at all. While they are not necessarily as interested in political matters as "our" generation were, many are business orientated in that they have self-funded their attendance at university. Yes, there will be opportunities to go out and get plastered, but generally they do their studies and submit their work according to the syllabus (in between doing the two or three part-time jobs they need to generate disposable income). furthermore many larger city universities rely on a significant number of fee-paying foreign students, without whom the universities will not be able to afford to operate, and mature/distance learning students (myself included), all of whom have a different attitude to further/higher education that the traditional "hippy" student Bandy_E referred to.
 
I joined up at 16 & 7 months in 1977. I didn't know what I was doing then, so I certainly wouldn't have known who to vote for, but I agree with Flagdeck, anyone getting the wets in would have secured the vote no prob.
 
That's a really good point.

Additionally, not the only one but the only one I could be bothered finding;

Experts say that even at ages 16 and 17, when compared to adults, juveniles on average are more:
• Impulsive.
• Aggressive.
• Emotionally volatile.
• Likely to take risks.
• Reactive to stress.
• Vulnerable to peer pressure.
• Prone to focus on and overestimate short-term payoffs and underplay longer-term consequences of what they do.
• Likely to overlook alternative courses of action.

Experts link teen brains' immaturity, juvenile crime - ABC News

I would also suggest that juveniles gravitate to the anti Establishment end of the spectrum and towards the "socialist" way of thinking. Sort of, "I've got bugger all and I want to share everything equally". In my experience, that does not usually extend to most normally adjusted, intelligent and educated people beyond the age of 30.
 

Troglodyte

Lantern Swinger
Vote at 16!? Christ alive! many 16 year olds cant find their nudgers at that age let alone decide who to vote for and why, if they can even read the bumpf shoved through letter boxes that is so leave things as they are.
 
A large proportion of those arrested in the London riots and during the 'retake' actions were politically motivated students. They sure had an impact.
Really? A large proportion? I only remember 32 arrests on the 11th June and 57 on the 12th. Nearly all reports I read at the time said almost all were anarchist activists and didn't refer to any of them as students. The rest of the reports said that the police had not categorised the individuals arrested. I suppose I should have kept an eye on later reports.
In my opinion the group that had the greatest impact during the G8 "carnival" were the riot police who attacked the anti globalist headquarters in Beak Street. Otherwise it was a bit of a damp squib.
 
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guestm

Guest
Really? A large proportion? I only remember 32 arrests on the 11th June and 57 on the 12th. Nearly all reports I read at the time said almost all were anarchist activists and didn't refer to any of them as students. The rest of the reports said that the police had not categorised the individuals arrested. I suppose I should have kept an eye on later reports.
In my opinion the group that had the greatest impact during the G8 "carnival" were the riot police who attacked the anti globalist headquarters in Beak Street. Otherwise it was a bit of a damp squib.
The kicked off over tuition fees in numbers too.
Here's your starter for ten. There's more kicking around on t'web: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nt-arrested-throwing-extinguisher-police.html
 
The kicked off over tuition fees in numbers too.
Here's your starter for ten. There's more kicking around on t'web: TUITION FEES PROTEST: Student arrested for throwing fire extinguisher at police | Mail Online
I would fully expect students to protest in their own interest. As for the Daily Jackboot, I won't read anything that rag has to say as long as I've a hole in my arse.
I do remember a couple of higher education students being hauled before the beak in the London riots.
 
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