Should staff assginments be longer than two years and should we advertise the posts?

Guns

War Hero
Moderator
Is the Royal navy getting to the stage where a more flexible working pattern is going to be needed to meet manpower needs.

I have been mulling this over for some time. You join up and do your time. At some point you make the decision to leave. Now at this point we, the Naval Service, loose you and your experiance.

What if we had the ability for people to move back and forth between industry and the services? We could advertise certain jobs to all candiates and we can select the best. This would allow certain Staff positions that need deep skills and experiance to be filled without the need to churn in order to meet a promotion feed beast

Example - We need an engineering related staff position to manage a short term project (say 4 years to FOC). We advertise the position for all to apply. The specfics of the job may require knowledge of defence, or not. Successful applicants can be either Regular staff or you could get a civillian who is qualified. They are given a RNR commission, some very basic military training and then let loose. With FTRS home committment the capitation costs are similar to a CS filling the role.

Just an idea, not really thought much about it but I offer for discussion.
 
So, serious, but quick points:

Yes, no, maybe. Individually, certain staff jobs are ripe for moving out of a CM's sole preserve, and into a more competitive entry process. I know a Cdr who has effectively promoted himself by going for a DE&S OF5 job and winning the job interview. Which is fine at those levels, but it has been informed by his experiences hitherto, some of which who would have been unlikely to get if they were open to competition.

It would have to be carefully managed to continue through-put at every level. I would suggest there more than a few posts that need properly sequencing to allow for the best effect of the Pusser's outlay in training.

What would be much more helpful would be an internal job market, with assignments properly advertised, with the correct competencies (which is not the same as the career history of the bloke/lass currently doing it) and 2* and OF5 areas becoming proper business areas, responsible for the capitation costs of their areas.

How do we manage the shitty jobs? Who fills them? Where is the reward for serving out of preference area, or at the end of a long career where job stability is more necessary?

Thoughts for 10.
 

Dabtoe11

Badgeman
Nope, not going to happen.
Once your time served guys are getting paid what they deem is the going rate outside, you are going to have to compete with that, that is not going to sit well with the guys who have yet to serve their time, two guys doing the same job and one getting a civvy rate?
The only way you can get this up and running is to up your pay scale to the civvy rate, and no government is going to do that.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
Interesting ideas Guns - part of the challenge will be bringing back those from the outside who see the bright lights and want to stay. Perhaps a form of loan on extant salary but return of service may work?

Alternatively rely more heavily on the RNR engineering branch, let people leave, seamless transfer into RNR engineering or other branch, do a few years in various roles, then when they get bored let them back in. The issue is good CM, but this can be fixed if the wider RN moved away from the concept of a plot, and instead moved to open competition for posts, something I've advocated for a few years.
 
I think the RNR recruiting service leavers is a hiding to nothing. All of my leavers are leaving for reasons they would be subject to in a full time RNR role: programme instability, perceived poor pay, uncertainty over future roles, distance from home. Why would a ex-service person who lives 200+ miles away from a dockyard, sign up to do all that again?
 

jrwlynch

Lantern Swinger
Is the Royal navy getting to the stage where a more flexible working pattern is going to be needed to meet manpower needs.
<snip>
Example - We need an engineering related staff position to manage a short term project (say 4 years to FOC). We advertise the position for all to apply. The specfics of the job may require knowledge of defence, or not. Successful applicants can be either Regular staff or you could get a civillian who is qualified. They are given a RNR commission, some very basic military training and then let loose. With FTRS home committment the capitation costs are similar to a CS filling the role.
The problem comes in trying to work out the ranks and salaries. (The rank matters because it dictates the salary...) As a personal for-instance, when I regretfully left a job working with the Navy, my SO1 was seriously exploring ways to get me in as RNR, maybe mobilised or FTRS, but - because I'm an old SO3 who came late to the Reserves - it wasn't going to fix the problem that while I loved the job and the people I worked with, I couldn't afford to ignore how underpaid I was any more. (It's an odd feeling to, quite literally, double your income by changing jobs).

If I could have jumped to earning something like a midscale Lt Cdr's salary I'd have done so - but then the attraction of "as cheap as CS" starts to fade because we aren't that cheap any more. Also, without being chippy, Service folk get a lot of benefits that civilians don't: that's generally for a good reason but it does make them expensive when they're doing a 4-5 year posting in one place, yet it's likely to smart to lose the allowances (which are harder to sell when you're in a FTRS post - and does a Regular get to keep X-factor, does a civilian brought in get it?) and if they don't, they're still expensive by comparison.

It's not insuperable or impossible, but there's a terribly untidy tangle of issues to resolve.
 
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wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
I think the RNR recruiting service leavers is a hiding to nothing. All of my leavers are leaving for reasons they would be subject to in a full time RNR role: programme instability, perceived poor pay, uncertainty over future roles, distance from home. Why would a ex-service person who lives 200+ miles away from a dockyard, sign up to do all that again?
We've been over this before a number of times in a number of threads. Configured as it is the RNR couldn't help. Even with wholesale changes the issue is cultural and more specifically peoples increasing reluctance to work for an organisation that has a huge amount of churn inherent in its nature (being kind).

It's fine for a 20-30 years old, but as people get older they have different expectations and demands, as we stand the military is not set up to cater for those demands. The renumeration we recieve and the wider benefits such as CEA are no longer sufficient.

The idea of flexible working and drawing in external sources was looked at as part of the early TOPMAST research, even then there was no conclusive evidence to suggest there was a pragmatic and affordable way to make it a reality.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
As for staff appointments being longer than 2 years, thats already being implemented. As part of early NEM work, building on the RAF decision to create a mainstream/fast stream cadre, as you reach the second stage of your career you will tend to spend longer in appoointments to make more use of your experience and expertise, unless you are a fast streamer and then you will move on 18-24 cycles to get ever more experience in readiness for greatness. Or at least thats the theory.

Also a lot of position in DE&S and ISS are now wholly competitive which has opened up the positions to suitably qualified and experienced civilians. In ISS there are at least 3 x 1* who have come in from civilian industry, on eye watering salaries! Which is an interesting development as you get to 1/2* and 1*, realising you need to compete.

Not sure I see this being overly sensible outside of DE&S and ISS, again it was something TOPMAST considered (an Ops room supervisor is just a supervisor, hire in a civilian manager....), quickly discounted.
 
Which suppose opens the question, how is the RN going to prepare it's people to compete in this market? Whilst quite obviously a PWO hand chop and the ability to shout for the ORS will get you 99% of the way, every time, there might be a little bit of a requirement for proper 'up-skilling'.

How do we stop the branches without direct civ comparators being left behind in terms of T&Cs and career prestige?
 
jrwlynch said:
The problem comes in trying to work out the ranks and salaries. (The rank matters because it dictates the salary...)
Well, actually, Rank is supposed to indicate the level of Authority and Responsibility. That said, it's probably been hijacked to achieve what you describe.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Which suppose opens the question, how is the RN going to prepare it's people to compete in this market?

How do we stop the branches without direct civ comparators being left behind in terms of T&Cs and career prestige?
Two big questions there. From my perspective and personal experience we don't do it very well at all currently.

We would have to develop an HD policy and system akin to the Army. Establishing the posts we value and where we wish RN influence to reside then work to determine the skills and experience needed to put people competitively into those posts and then work out backwards the posts these people need to have filled and then make sure that chain is monitored. It's a very proactive model, you see where I'm going to go next......

To your latter point the same applies. Analyse the potential to exploit internal/external talent (starting to hate that word) and then look at up skilling and recompense to mitigate.

Of course it goes without saying until we have some form of manpower stability we will struggle to implement any measure broadly comparable to these.

Let's not even broach creating a permanent HR cadre....
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
How do we stop the branches without direct civ comparators being left behind in terms of T&Cs and career prestige?
Create cartoons in A3 size that bang on about the access the officer hierarchy have to God, with the punch line that 'CPO ( insert non engineering branch one wishes to big up ) is God'. CPO (OPS) love that stuff.

I'm trying to compose a proposal for a future engineering manning model
( not another) but iPhone and hunger are thwarting me. Mr Brain isn't helping either.
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
I seem to recall a Lieutenant who was in a uniformed job at NC ( in the last decade) who had left the Service but was now employed locally, like but not FTRS. If so, I'd propose scope for individually negotiated contracts for those who wish to drop in and out of Active Service with 'don't take the Micky ' clauses for both parties.
 
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