Should continuing education while in the RN be encouraged?

Have you been informed about further education facilities available to you


  • Total voters
    371

slim

War Hero
I left the RN after serving 22 years in 1985. It was only in my last seven or eight years that I took advantage of the excellent educational services offered. I was fully aware that I could attend GCE courses in English and Maths and this was available at all establishments and even some larger ships. I was never informed of the opportunity to take advantage of local college day release courses (is this facility still available?). Would I have taken advantage of these facilities when younger? I can't say probably not. In this new day and age is enough being done to encourage serving personnel to take advantage of the educational opportunities on offer?
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

Very much so. There is a comprehensive system of grants to fund aspects of further education and there is an organistaion that sends schoolies to sea, on the way back from my last trip we embarked one for about 6 weeks. She arrived with an arm load of lap tops so that the boys and girls could get started and she gave evryone a personal interview with the aim of informing them of options available, how to get funding and then to actually get them to make a plan. In this day and age we have to compete for manpower and we should use every trick to make our offer more attractive. If they made me 2SL over night I would scrub round graduate entry, get every one into BRNC at 18 and use an in service degree as the carrot.
 
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

Silverfox

Never mention "comprehensive" and "education" in the same sentence. We do want them to learn something and preferably useful.
 

F169

War Hero
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

Silverfox,

it is gobsmacking to me we have never done that. Manadon (RIP) did it, they used City University on a small scale for a while but have really missed out on the opportunity to make Dartmouth a college or faculty of a reputable university. The Aussies do it for all three services. Perhaps there would be an opportunity to use the new Defence academy concept to bring this about.

Not sure such a system would/should cover all officer recruitment, when the present 2SL joined he was a DGE and in those days recruiting was quite buoyant. It would be sad to turn down the brightest and possibly the best just because they realised their vocation too late.
 

Shakey

War Hero
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

Passed-over_Loggie said:
Silverfox

Never mention "comprehensive" and "education" in the same sentence.
Oi! I resemble that remark! :wink:

The mob has a fairly good system in place for education, there's English and maths courses at Nelson for those who want their GCSE indeed you need them if you are to progress up to and beyond killick rate.

There's always the distance learning as well, but many people find correspondence learning on their own difficult.

Also, don't forget foreign language training - there's three standards of language pass in the forces and a pass even at basic conversational level can put a few quid in your pay packet.
 

RoofRat

War Hero
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

Definately, it should be encouraged. I left a Secondary modern school at 15 years old with nothing as regards paper certificates. All of the GCE's that I have now, are thanks to the Royal Navy Schoolies and my enlightened leaders who allowed me the time off to attend classes.
As a Senior Rate, I always used to tell my lads that,"they could get anything out of the Navy, if they went about it the right way". I am happy to say that amongst those "youngsters" are a bevy of "two and halfs" and "Lt's".
RoofRat
 

mikh

MIA
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

RN Should definatley cotinueing to offer educational opportunity to personnel. I currently work for a training provider which involves taking scholl leavers and getting them apprenticeships - many are coming out with GCSE's in maths and english but on completion of or numberacy and litercy diagnostic assessments being shown to need significant help with both. As it stand I have a seven year who can read at a higher level than some who are shopwing a GCSE grade D in english (down to a good school and lots of parental encouragement to get interested in books).

Education, Education,EDUCATION Just another soundbyte that resulted in the apparant lowering of standards
 

Clouseau

Banned
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

Apologies - this is slightly off your original topic

I can't help but feel that in these days of TDBC, HLA savings and the need to slash the cost of training we should train to the requirement and just the requirement.

Sad, certainly but what need has the Service for civilian qualifications? Recruitment and retention I hear you say? - I'm not convinced. If there is no requirement for the training (does not contribute to TPS->OPS) and there is no funding for it, bin it.

I am willing to be persuaded otherwise but my short time in my present job has turned me into a cynic.
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

Clouseau said:
Apologies - this is slightly off your original topic

I can't help but feel that in these days of TDBC, HLA savings and the need to slash the cost of training we should train to the requirement and just the requirement.

Sad, certainly but what need has the Service for civilian qualifications? Recruitment and retention I hear you say? - I'm not convinced. If there is no requirement for the training (does not contribute to TPS->OPS) and there is no funding for it, bin it.

I am willing to be persuaded otherwise but my short time in my present job has turned me into a cynic.
Which is a fair point, but in the larger picture we are competing for recruits and the Services have always made a point of providing a trade or similar skills. The degree programme for officers is a throwback to the old days but is ana area where we could compete whilst also getting something for our money. Recruiting at the moment is not really a dificulty - keeping people in is, as a the average age of entry at BRNC varies from 22-24, it means that by the time they get to the front line they can be 25-26 depending upon specialisation - and to then find they will have to spend the next years going from sea job to sea job (in the case of the X branch) does not fit in with their life plans ie marriage houses etc. None of which entered our little heads when I joined - get them in at 18 - show thwem pictures of ships, boats planes etc and then when they get to 30 let them go with a degree and hopefully enough will have been able to make an informed choice as to whether or not to make it a career.

We are the only European Navy that does not offer a degree as part of the package - my counterpart at the German College was gobsmacked and said that they would'nt get anyone through the door if they didn't offer university training....
 

slim

War Hero
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

I am surprised that in this day and age a degree qualification is not part of a general service officers course. Surely it would not be too difficult to tailor officer training in such a way that a degree even if its an MBA is awarded on successful completion. This would achieve at least two aims

1. The officer would have a management degree which would be recognised in civilian life.
2. Those on the lower deck would be appreciate that officers are no longer public schoolboys with 5 O levels but professional managers

When I left the RN in 85 the move was already in place to award NVQs to ratings during their professional training. Hopefully this is still in place. If so are these ratings being made aware that in many cases these NVQs can often be used as the foundation to higher education?
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

The difficulty with the European model, and the US scheme, is that you send cadets to university for 3 years. They then forget whats what and it takes about 6 months to a year to get them back to being a useful operator - this means, in the case of the German Navy for example, that they have been in the navy for 7 years or so before a return is gained - way way too expensive, and indeed whilst we have a suitable number of volunteers, unecessary. What is happening though is the Command Leadreship and Management training that an officer, or SR, gets is being accredited with civilian institutions (CMI, ILM etc) which will, hopefully result in civilian recognised awards. before anyone panics, this does not mean we are changing the type or standard of training - merely providing opportunities for people to present evidence to the appropriate examining authorities.

And as to the way the officer corps is viewed - no rating I know is that blinkered in their views as to where officers come from - they are all far too clever for that these days.
 

slim

War Hero
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

silverfox said:
The difficulty with the European model, and the US scheme, is that you send cadets to university for 3 years. They then forget whats what and it takes about 6 months to a year to get them back to being a useful operator - this means, in the case of the German Navy for example, that they have been in the navy for 7 years or so before a return is gained - way way too expensive, and indeed whilst we have a suitable number of volunteers, unecessary. What is happening though is the Command Leadreship and Management training that an officer, or SR, gets is being accredited with civilian institutions (CMI, ILM etc) which will, hopefully result in civilian recognised awards. before anyone panics, this does not mean we are changing the type or standard of training - merely providing opportunities for people to present evidence to the appropriate examining authorities.

And as to the way the officer corps is viewed - no rating I know is that blinkered in their views as to where officers come from - they are all far too clever for that these days.
There is no need for officers to attend university for three years to get an MBA. Many MBA holders have acquired the qualification through either day release or evening attendance. It is highly likely that officers training already incorporates many of the skills required for the MBA.
During my time the Artificers took two sets of examinations at the end of their apprenticeship. The first was mandatory and the second for ONC was optional. Most Tiffs took both and were awarded ONCs on completion of Naval training.
 

Clouseau

Banned
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

silverfox said:
Clouseau said:
Apologies - this is slightly off your original topic

I can't help but feel that in these days of TDBC, HLA savings and the need to slash the cost of training we should train to the requirement and just the requirement.

Sad, certainly but what need has the Service for civilian qualifications? Recruitment and retention I hear you say? - I'm not convinced. If there is no requirement for the training (does not contribute to TPS->OPS) and there is no funding for it, bin it.

I am willing to be persuaded otherwise but my short time in my present job has turned me into a cynic.

Which is a fair point, but in the larger picture we are competing for recruits and the Services have always made a point of providing a trade or similar skills. The degree programme for officers is a throwback to the old days but is ana area where we could compete whilst also getting something for our money. Recruiting at the moment is not really a dificulty - keeping people in is, as a the average age of entry at BRNC varies from 22-24, it means that by the time they get to the front line they can be 25-26 depending upon specialisation - and to then find they will have to spend the next years going from sea job to sea job (in the case of the X branch) does not fit in with their life plans ie marriage houses etc. None of which entered our little heads when I joined - get them in at 18 - show thwem pictures of ships, boats planes etc and then when they get to 30 let them go with a degree and hopefully enough will have been able to make an informed choice as to whether or not to make it a career.

We are the only European Navy that does not offer a degree as part of the package - my counterpart at the German College was gobsmacked and said that they would'nt get anyone through the door if they didn't offer university training....

I'm not so sure that civilian qualifications are a major reason why people join. Maybe it is the case at the officer / degree level? Maybe it effects retention rather than recruitment?

All I know is that if we are going to have to make savings in training on the scale that is proposed, then we are going to have to seriously look at the way we train people (not salami slicing). What we train and why we train it needs to be bottomed out. If there isn't a need then bin it.

[ I'm sure I attended a lecture on strategic transformation last year. It wasn't related to training though! :? :lol: ]
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

You're right about the just enough just in time principle, however I think that the prospect of getting cilvilian qualifications is a powerful attraction and should not be over estimated.. if they have the choice of 2 employers then the one with the better options may well win
 

slim

War Hero
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

I left school at 15 with no qualifications. A couple of months before my 18th birthday I joined the RN as an EM. The reason, to get a trade which would be recognised by the civilian employer when I left the RN.
Many of my colleagues left after nine years as leading hands and were successfully employed in electrical fields. The secret in those days was to have completed leading hands course which then gave union recognition as a skilled electrician.
I believe that the RN would attract many more high calibre non graduates to the officer corps if a recognisable civilian qualification were to be awarded on completion of training.
 
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

Passed-over_Loggie said:
Silverfox

Never mention "comprehensive" and "education" in the same sentence. We do want them to learn something and preferably useful.
Oi mate, I went to a Comprehensive (OK, I conceed I'm not the best advertisement for them :oops:) - we were the first intake: my school had just converted from being a Sec.Mod. the previous year. Two of my colleagues at work also attended Comprehensives and attained Firsts in Science at good Universities (London, Oxford) and were PhDs in Science by their mid-20s. So there's hope. Just because Bliar's dad could afford Fettes doesn't make T a better person. :evil:
 

Novocastrian

Badgeman
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

The navy wants a round peg in a round hole. In my opinion the powers that be couldn't really give a rats arse about continuing education for the troops.

If you want to educate yourself you have to get off your backside and do it yourself, incurring the bulk of the cost on the way.

The SLC is quite handy if you want to bang out an extra GCSE but beyond that its value is negligible. The ELC sounds like a great idea until you realise that it is totally inflexible. My BA(Hons) will cost me around £3,000 all told the same amount as the first tranche of ELC's. However because of the rigid way that the system is administered it will only cover half of the cost and the balance of the ELC will have been "lost".

Maybe I should stop moaning and be thankful that the RN is contributing something towards my education - something I would still be doing without any financial help. Maybe, but I work US servicemen who have all of their degree paid for by the military.

Why not bring the same system in here? The RN would pick up the tab under the proviso that the course was completed successfully, otherwise the individual concerned would need to meet the cost.
 

F169

War Hero
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

SF is definitely not 2SL 'cos he wouldn't "scrub round graduate entry" (LOL)
 
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

silverfox said:
Very much so. There is a comprehensive system of grants to fund aspects of further education and there is an organistaion that sends schoolies to sea, on the way back from my last trip we embarked one for about 6 weeks. She arrived with an arm load of lap tops so that the boys and girls could get started and she gave evryone a personal interview with the aim of informing them of options available, how to get funding and then to actually get them to make a plan. In this day and age we have to compete for manpower and we should use every trick to make our offer more attractive. If they made me 2SL over night I would scrub round graduate entry, get every one into BRNC at 18 and use an in service degree as the carrot.
I can remember the then Minister (a labour polititian) telling our entry at Dartmouth we would be the last not to get a degree for our training. yet another promise that was just hot air.
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Re: Should continuing education while in the RN be encourage

F169 said:
SF is definitely not 2SL 'cos he wouldn't "scrub round graduate entry" (LOL)
LOL - indeed not - nor unlikely to be so...
 
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