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Seniority, Ranks and the Golden Hello

Meatballs

Midshipman
I have been told that I won't be starting as Aircrew in September but have a reasonable chance for January, so I'm definitly going to wait.

On the off-chance I fail the medical:

My other options are weapons engineer with £12,000 golden hello, and have been offered information systems engineer with 1 year (or possibly more) seniority.

I assume I start as a Sub-Lieutenant on OF1level 6 £29,006.40 as weapons engineer.

With 1 years seniority I will be on OF1level 7 £29.773.44?

Working it through on the spreadsheet (using 09/10 tax figures and taxing the golden hello) I believe after the end of 3 years at Sub-Lt I would be down £6,700 as E(IS).

Now I believe I get automatic promotion to Lt after 3 years as S-Lt. Would I then go straight to OF2L1 in both roles? Or would I get awarded a higher level again as E(IS)?

Anyone have a bit more knowledge of how it all works?

(Figures based on http://rncom.mod.uk/uploadedFiles/RN/PayAllowancesPensions/Rates_of_Pay_for_Officers_2009.pdf )
 

Jimmy_Green

War Hero
Can't help you on your particular query but as you are talking about salaries it's wrongly thought that aircrew get paid more. This is not the case, they in fact get paid quicker on account that at some stage they are likely to stuff the A/C into a Welsh hillside or be flying their lynx several hundred feet below the surface of the oggin.
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
Not sure about specifics, but you won't ever get a paycut. That is, if you're on OF1 L7 getting paid £29773 then, when you get promoted to Lt RN (OF2) you'll enter at the lowest level that still represents a salary of at least £29773.
 

Meatballs

Midshipman
S-Lt Level 10 is 32k
Lt Level 1 is 37k

So there shouldn't be any reduction in pay from being promoted.

I was wondering what happens when you get promoted, e.g. if a SLt on £32k and a SLt on £30k both get promoted to Lt at the same time, would they both start on the lowest rung of Lt 37k?

Or would one keep seniority and start up a couple of rungs? Or would it depend on performance, branch and other things?
 

SEP86

War Hero
Again, I can't comment on your specifics, or offers, but my interpretation would be:

You get promoted to Lt after 3 years seniority as a Sub-Lt. So, if you start as a subbie with 1 yr seniority, you will go to Lt after a further 2 years (making total 3 years seniority as a SLt) - you would then go onto OF2 L1. If you join as a SLt with no seniority, then you will do 3 years as a subbie, to gain that 3yr seniority total, before promotion to Lt at L1. This way, you keep that years head start into the Lt rank.

The question is deeper than that though, as short term gain may not be better in the long term. I have no idea, on average, whether WEs get promoted on merit to Lt Cdr earlier or later, but your free years seniority may not be so much of an advatage later and that 6k could easily pale into insignificance later. As for the ration of WE to E(IS) Cdrs ....

I would ask yourself which branch you want to be in rather than a few grand in the first couple of years.

Just my opinion and conjecture - I really do recommend you get the offers expolained to you properly and possibly put in writing.

Good luck whichever way it goes.
 

broono83

Newbie
Meatballs said:
I have been told that I won't be starting as Aircrew in September but have a reasonable chance for January, so I'm definitly going to wait.

off topic, but out of interest; how do you know this? did the Cmdr tell you after your interview or was it in the letter you recieve about passing AIB or what?
 

Meatballs

Midshipman
broono I got in contact with the TSO on my AIB letter because no-one discussed my joining options with me.

As for whether I choose WE or E(IS) I was told by my ACLO (a WE) that IS branched off from WE recently and there wasn't a big difference in the roles. Infact E(IS) can go and do the same 10 month course that WE do at Collingwood and work in the same department. The description of E(IS) seems a bit more training orientated, which is something I would rather move away from to be more technically involved.

I assume that there is more opportunity for promotion as a WE because the golden hello is obviously there for recruitment reasons. I'm trying to get a debrief from my ACLO so will also be asking all these questions to him as well.
 
Don't get sucked in to thinking that promotions must be good for WE- I've no idea what they are at the moment, but let's just say that you'll never drive a ship, or get much beyond Cdr unless you are the absolute best WE in your generation.

Call me a cynic but I'd say that the reason there is a "golden hello" is more likely to be to bump up the starting wage to be comparable to that which you would get if you joined some corporate IT set up in the city. After that though, they've got you, you can't leave for the best part of six years, and they can pay you what they like- i.e., the hello is golden, but everythng else they say to you after that is the same colour as what is said to everyone else....
 
Oh, and on seniority, it's in rank, not for life. So if you join with a year's seniority over everyone else, then you'll get promoted to Lt a year quicker than them. You will then go onto the bottom rung of Lt with everyone else that is promoted to Lt on the same day as you (although there won't be a pay cut). So, once you get to Lt, you are on the bottom rung with everyone else- rather than arriving in each rank halfway up the ladder.
 

lgu98141

Midshipman
It's true that E(IS) Officers and E(TM)s (though I grudge calling ETMs Engineers!) start at Dartmouth as Lts whereas E(WE)s start at Dartmouth as SLts with one years senioirty. So effectively, they get 2 extra years of Lt pay which is quite substantual. However, E(IS) now do approx the same jobs as E(WE)s including SEMC at Collingwood and a DWEOs job - albeit on a Capital Ship. With their 2 years added seniority, they are in zone quicker but, unless they're the dogs proverbials, they really need to push the boat out at evey job to be in with a shout. Also, there were approx 10 E(WE)s promoted to Lt Cdr last time compared to 2 E(IS) if memory serves. Forgive the long winded answer but don't worry so much about the money and make sure that you chose the right branch as 16 years is a long time to be in a job you don't like. All the best with what you do.
 
kinross_special said:
Don't get sucked in to thinking that promotions must be good for WE- I've no idea what they are at the moment, but let's just say that you'll never drive a ship, or get much beyond Cdr unless you are the absolute best WE in your generation.

Call me a cynic but I'd say that the reason there is a "golden hello" is more likely to be to bump up the starting wage to be comparable to that which you would get if you joined some corporate IT set up in the city. After that though, they've got you, you can't leave for the best part of six years, and they can pay you what they like- i.e., the hello is golden, but everythng else they say to you after that is the same colour as what is said to everyone else....

I would disagree. The industry as a whole has a shortage of engineering graduates with many more jobs than there are applicants. The 12k golden hello is designed to attract the best people for the job, and also since you need a degree to join as an engineering officer it is a kind of retrospective scholorship.

In my opinion the salary in the RN for an engineering officer is very good when compared with industry such as in the oil sector. This is especially true in the early years.
 

WhizzbangDai

War Hero
Wait.... so, starting at BRNC in September as a (wanabe) Pilot, what rank/pay will I be on, as i'm confused about the whole damn issue to be quite frank? (Sorry to hijack you're thread here for a few posts meatballs but nobody has told me anything about this even after passing everything)
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
Here's one to throw into the mixing bowl:

Why do Engineering officers need a vocational degree when Warfare Officers & Logistics Officers don't?

Sounds like a beligerent & provocative question, however the engineering officer manages those that have the necessary skills to physically complete the "hands-on" aspects of engineering, much the same as Warfare & Logistics Officers manage their qualified/trained workforce, so what's the difference? If there is a difference- why aren't they paid more?

In a similar manner, you don't need to be a qualified doctor to manage a hospital, nor a law degree to manage logistical trades or a defence studies degree to manage a warfare department & "fight" a warship.
 

Karma

War Hero
Ninja_Stoker said:
Why do Engineering officers need a vocational degree when Warfare Officers & Logistics Officers don't?

So that you can tell when the SRs are trying to bulsh!t. It's a second stage filter beyond lips are moving, which is a pretty good indicator...

:)

Anyway, I find it really quite pathetic that there is so much angst about specific amounts of pay.
 
Karma said:
Ninja_Stoker said:
Why do Engineering officers need a vocational degree when Warfare Officers & Logistics Officers don't?

So that you can tell when the SRs are trying to bulsh!t. It's a second stage filter beyond lips are moving, which is a pretty good indicator...

:)

Anyway, I find it really quite pathetic that there is so much angst about specific amounts of pay.

Pah!

You need more than just a degree to be able to tell when we are being even vaguely evasive! :wink:
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
Karma said:
Ninja_Stoker said:
Why do Engineering officers need a vocational degree when Warfare Officers & Logistics Officers don't?

So that you can tell when the SRs are trying to bulsh!t. It's a second stage filter beyond lips are moving, which is a pretty good indicator...

:)

Anyway, I find it really quite pathetic that there is so much angst about specific amounts of pay.

:D Hmmn, thought that may be one of the reasons.

Presumably Logistics & Warfare Senior Ratings are more honest.
 

officer_inland

Lantern Swinger
Not going to jump on the whole pay rise band wagon...but just wondering, as a graduate, you go in as a SLt but I also read that you get 3/3.5 years seniority. Do you need to have a certain number of years to be put forward for promotion? (And no I'm not getting ahead of myself, I just want to be the Navy!!! :D)
 

lgu98141

Midshipman
The seniority that you talk about is already applied when you reach Dartmouth. So as a graduate with a BEng, BSc, etc you will be a SLt with that seniority already - so in 2 more years you will be a Lt. Those E(IS) and E(TM)s get extra seniority due to their supposed extra academic qualifications (though not always the case). Usually they will have a masters or some even have Phds and are rewarded with the extra seniority. I personally don't agree that they deserve it but thats life in a blue one
 
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