Selly Oak & RNH Haslar

[Always_a_Civvy]

Below are two reports from the Commons Hansard: 21 March 2007, Col.927W & Cols.927-928W, the first on the future status of RNH Haslar and the second concerning Selly Oak Hospital.

I shall place future postings of this nature on the Westminster thread below.
http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=2379.html

Royal Naval Hospital Haslar

Mr. Vaizey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to relocate the Royal Hospital Haslar. [128230]

Derek Twigg: None. The Royal Hospital Haslar will lose its formal military status on 31 March. However, we expect that it will continue to operate much as it does now until late 2009, with the support of military doctors and nurses, providing health care to the local community and, in very small numbers, military patients, until Portsmouth Hospitals Trust is able to relocate its clinical activity elsewhere. The hospital will then be closed.

Military doctors and nurses will continue to maintain their skills and treat patients in the hospitals of the Portsmouth Hospital Trust and other NHS trusts which host Ministry of Defence Hospital Units (MDHU)s. Military patients will continue to receive treatment from the MDHU host trusts and other parts of the NHS.
[hr]
Selly Oak Hospital

Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how the (a) accommodation and (b) treatment of wounded servicemen and women is organised at the NHS Selly Oak hospital. [128483]

Derek Twigg [holding answer 19 March 2007]: Military patients admitted to Selly Oak hospital, or other hospitals of the University Hospital Birmingham Foundation Trust, are accommodated in wards appropriate to their clinical need. The largest number of operational casualties have required treatment as trauma orthopaedic cases. They are therefore the focus for the military managed ward that has been developed at Selly Oak to enable military patients to be accommodated together in a single ward, where it is clinically appropriate to do so.

The military managed ward offers the opportunity to accommodate military patients together in six-bedded bays or, when necessary, in side isolation rooms. A works project, now out to tender, will change the layout of the ward to produce a separate area for military patients, utilising the two bays and isolation rooms at the far end of the ward.

The treatment of military patients is the responsibility of the NHS Trust. A military trauma co-ordinator is responsible for liaising with clinical colleagues, military and civilian, to provide advice on Service issues and ensure that military aspects of military patients’ treatment are fully taken into account. On the military managed ward, military nurses will always be on duty and currently include 19 qualified nurses and 5 health care assistants. They work closely together with NHS colleagues to provide nursing care, with special emphasis on military patients. A military ward manager, supported by three military deputies, is responsible for all aspects of the military presence on the ward.

Military patients at Selly Oak and elsewhere in the Birmingham area are supported by the work of two full-time community psychiatric nurses and four welfare officers of the Defence Medical Welfare Service. Families of injured Service personnel are provided with welfare support and accommodation when necessary. Accommodation available includes seven flats, plus a number of family rooms.

We shall continue to enhance the capability of the military managed ward and the care available for all military patients. The development of the ward would not have been possible without the close and enthusiastic support of the NHS Trust.

 

[jungle_jim]

oh yes i remember them FAMILY rooms. a single bed for the wife, when asking about what i could do with my children, as i hadnt seen them for months either i was told no only over 18s can use the FAMILY rooms and if you need to see your children whilst in Sellyoak then you need to book a hotel room WELL THANK_YOU

 

[asst_dep_to_dep_asst]

oh yes i remember them FAMILY rooms. a single bed for the wife, when asking about what i could do with my children, as i hadnt seen them for months either i was told no only over 18s can use the FAMILY rooms and if you need to see your children whilst in Sellyoak then you need to book a hotel room WELL THANK_YOU

JJ - I don't know your situation, but there can only be a finite amount of accommodation on site at Brum. Presumably the 7 flats were all occupied at the time you needed accomm for your children.

I don't know, but I'd have thought that there might be Unit welfare funding assistance available to help with hotel costs for a short while. The Army seems to bend over backwards to support their people and my experience of working with Royal's welfare people was always pretty positive.

We only ever had 2 flats available at Haslar for the use of families, although there was access to a couple of married quarters on Rowner for long-stay patients. A return to the old ways would not necessarily be any better from that point of view and I think it's reasonable to say that nobody in more recent times ever expected to be planning for the casualty numbers that we've had from current operations.

Unfortunately, medical provision and the support that goes with it is always the first casualty in cost cutting measures and the last to be considered until you already need it.

 

[TMG05]

Plenty of excess student accommodation in Selly and vicinity: Maybe the MoD could use some of the money they save from demilitarizing Haslar to purchase accommodation; or rent some from UoB.

 

[wardmaster]

oh yes i remember them FAMILY rooms. a single bed for the wife, when asking about what i could do with my children, as i hadnt seen them for months either i was told no only over 18s can use the FAMILY rooms and if you need to see your children whilst in Sellyoak then you need to book a hotel room WELL THANK_YOU

We only ever had 2 flats available at Haslar for the use of families, although there was access to a couple of married quarters on Rowner for long-stay patients. A return to the old ways would not necessarily be any better from that point of view and I think it's reasonable to say that nobody in more recent times ever expected to be planning for the casualty numbers that we've had from current operations.

I really do wonder about you! RNH Haslar didn't need much accommodation for families because they lived locally in most cases. Sailors/RMs from Portsmouth/Gosport were treated locally, not in Birmingham! And there was a superb team of Red Cross/St John Welfare Officers on site to look after relatives. And if nobody expected to be planning for the casualty numbers that we've had from current operations, then they bloody well ought to have been!

 

[andym]

Closing Haslar will return to haunt the MOD with a vengance!In my mind its just sheer folly to shut it!!!!

 

[SILVER_FOX]

I would have thought that given these guys have gone to fight a war ... sorry, enforce the peace (the war is over after all) on behalf of their Government, that the same Government would put in place the necessary funding routes to allow additional accommodation to be rented on a short-term basis as required, or failing that a bloody hotel.

This isn't rocket science - it's simply a matter of finance. Typically though it is unlikely that MinDef and his crew to recognise that and take decisive action to resolve the situation.

Personally I believe it all adds to the speculation that people in power are simply embarrassed by wounded service personnel. As for the amount of compensation being paid out to these guys - don't get me started!

SF

 

[Jack_McHammocklashing]

oh yes i remember them FAMILY rooms. a single bed for the wife, when asking about what i could do with my children, as i hadnt seen them for months either i was told no only over 18s can use the FAMILY rooms and if you need to see your children whilst in Sellyoak then you need to book a hotel room WELL THANK_YOU

I think it's reasonable to say that nobody in more recent times ever expected to be planning for the casualty numbers that we've had from current operations.

.

Do you suggest we have a military for
Sea cruises
Flying lessons and
Middle eastern holidays

Hospitals are just like the ships, tanks and aircraft, we hope they are never needed but we have them just the same
So we should have the Hospitals too

One of Scotlands greatest orthopedic surgeons VC and all, learnt his skills putting servicemen back together

 

[flatscrubber]

I'm sorry but i can't see how anyone can defend the fact that we will be the only Western Military power without a dedicated Military Hospital!!
Its an absolute f*****g disgrace,and a bit of an embarrasment!
And as for not forseeing the casualty numbers from the current operations abroad the Civil servants/politicians should resign.I won't hold my breath though!!!!!!

 

[2badge_mango]

I've just posted this on another thread but find it pertinent to this. Did anyone watch channel 4 at 1930? "Britain's throwaway soldiers"
Ex war correspondent and independent MP Martin Bell putting a very strong case for the dedicated military/Naval hospital argument.

2BM

 

[come_the_day]

[quote="wardmaster

I really do wonder about you! RNH Haslar didn't need much accommodation for families because they lived locally in most cases. Sailors/RMs from Portsmouth/Gosport were treated locally, not in Birmingham! And there was a superb team of Red Cross/St John Welfare Officers on site to look after relatives. And if nobody expected to be planning for the casualty numbers that we've had from current operations, then they bloody well ought to have been![/quote]

The flats at Haslar were primarily for the relatives of those who were considered to be Very Seriously Ill and, if you believe that most families lived locally in the Portsmouth area, you are wrong. The majority of families that needed the assistance provided lived, and probably still do, in the various home areas that Jack is from, whether that's England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales. You're right, there was an excellent St John and Red Cross organisation that supported those in need, not least of all the medical and nursing staff.

Whilst I agree that the planners should have been better prepared for the current usage, I was merely making the point that when the Laurence Report was saving a few thousand pounds by recommending the closure of Service hospitals, UK forces were not in Afghanistan or Sierra Leone and even the Balkans was not a big casualty generator. The Falklands and Granby were the most recent conflicts and were casually ignored in the interests of saving cash, especially from the medical point of view. As I said before, Service medicine is only important after it is seen as necessary, so if it doesn't involve throwing money at training and employing doctors for anything but the specialties we need, it doesn't happen.

Having said all that there is no point in having military hospitals for their own sake and the principally required specialties gain the best experience day-to-day in the NHS. I'm sure there will be plenty who disagree, but, while there was lots of good stuff in Service hospitals, there was an awful lot of crap.

 

[hammockhead]

Fact is we are not going to get a dedicated military hospital, and it's best that we focus our efforts on getting a few better and fully military wards. I would prefer to have a few of these around the country in the best NHS hospitals than just have one big military hospital

 

[phil1972]

So now that Haslar is an NHS hospital, how long will it be before we see the cleaning contract being revised (that is passed on to a cheaper alternative that doesn't actual have to keep the hospital clean).

 

[wardmaster]

[quote="wardmaster
the principally required specialties gain the best experience day-to-day in the NHS.

Wrong again! The principally required specialities, Surgery and Anaesthesia, gain the best experience in Field Hospitals.

Why are you using a different name? Are you just confused?

 

[asst_dep_to_dep_asst]

[quote="wardmaster
the principally required specialties gain the best experience day-to-day in the NHS.

Wrong again! The principally required specialities, Surgery and Anaesthesia, gain the best experience in Field Hospitals.

Why are you using a different name? Are you just confused?

Nope. I have an account on my work PC and one at home. Too lazy to see if I can combine them and still get my work access.

I'll grant you that surgery and anaesthetics are as important as intensive care and trauma, but the experience gained on ops does not fulfil the whole requirement in either specialty, unless the individual remains on ops for the whole time, rather than the 6 weeks or so that consultants currently do. Most Service doctors, nurses and medics are employed within NHS facilities for most of their time, so it surely makes sense that they should be somewhere beneficial for the development of their experience. Anybody who really thinks that sufficient experience was provided in either of the old Services hospitals should ditch their rose-tint, because it just isn't true.

 

[wardmaster]

[quote="wardmaster
the principally required specialties gain the best experience day-to-day in the NHS.

Wrong again! The principally required specialities, Surgery and Anaesthesia, gain the best experience in Field Hospitals.

Why are you using a different name? Are you just confused?

Nope. I have an account on my work PC and one at home. Too lazy to see if I can combine them and still get my work access.

I'll grant you that surgery and anaesthetics are as important as intensive care and trauma, but the experience gained on ops does not fulfil the whole requirement in either specialty, unless the individual remains on ops for the whole time, rather than the 6 weeks or so that consultants currently do. Most Service doctors, nurses and medics are employed within NHS facilities for most of their time, so it surely makes sense that they should be somewhere beneficial for the development of their experience. Anybody who really thinks that sufficient experience was provided in either of the old Services hospitals should ditch their rose-tint, because it just isn't true.

Ok, I give you all that; medical training and skills require a broad range of clinical material. But I still re-iterate my point (which you have never answered) that Armed Services wards in NHS Hospitals were sold on the basis that service personnel would get priority but that never happened. And NHS managers were keen to see (because they lost money) that service hospitals never did get a broad range of clinical material and could therefore be criticised and then closed.

 

[asst_dep_to_dep_asst]

But I still re-iterate my point (which you have never answered) that Armed Services wards in NHS Hospitals were sold on the basis that service personnel would get priority but that never happened. And NHS managers were keen to see (because they lost money) that service hospitals never did get a broad range of clinical material and could therefore be criticised and then closed.

I haven't really got an answer, because I don't recognise what you are stating as fact. As far as I am aware, there was no agreement that the Services would have their own wards. Which Service personnel do you suggest were to get priority? Service patients were never going to displace higher priority civilian patients, but there is a priority route of access that costs more. Your point (b) is a bit fanciful and I think you are just trying to deflect the blame for closing Service hospitals onto the NHS, rather than where it really belongs. Much as they complain now, the General Staff's predecessors must have agreed to the situation changing, or it would only have happened amidst loud protest and I don't remember any of that.