R's to go by March?

WarMonger

War Hero
dubaipusser said:
Brains said:
WarMonger said:
everyone Ive spoken to from units all over the country seems to think we are swamped with JO's who dont seem to have a definitive role..!!
Surely JOs are either doing their officers' initial training, or they are the junior members of specialisations that exist because the RN has identified a need.

The RNR does not provide a 'body' of men and women as such, but a pool of independents and if the roles are officer roles, such as sub ops, then it makes absolutely no difference what the ratio of officers to SRs to JRs is.

Saying that JOs don't have a definitive role is like saying that NEs and AB2s don't have a definitive role. Their difinitive role is to get good at doing something that the RN needs them to be able to do.

Ratios certainly do help the running of an RNRU as a ship, which can have a part to play in maintaining morale and delivering in-unit training, but the requirement is for capabilities, not for a self-contained hierarchy.

Getting back to the subject (shock!).... if they're doing a job for the RN, why should they look different? In working rig, killicks and SRs now have no distinguishing marks as reservists. I still say scrap the Rs, ABs 'RNR tabs' and the flashes, on everything including No.1s. 1s may not be rig of the day in Basra, but they are still worn in numerous working environments and not just for ceremonial occasions.
Hurrah! Well done Brains - cracking good response.
All very well and some elements of your response are correct however, the areas within which you indicate their roles lie i.e. sub ops etc...how many people do they exactly need....many of the roles that are undertaken by the RNR especially at officer level are niche areas that by and large the RN do not have expertise in granted..but with the word niche goes another word and that is small!!....in order to fill these niche areas is it necessary that such a large portion of new entrants to the RNR have to be officers..I dont think so.....especially when the RN are looking to reducing the manning level by 15,000 and that these reductions are going to be aimed at SR's and notably OFFICERS. There seems to be an anomally with as you say what the "RN" wants!

Whether you like it or not the ground swell of opinion from many people in the RNR and the fact is that currently the RNR and many units are top heavy organisations...this is not a local view I have heard the same view expressed not just from other reservists but also RN CWO's who have visited many units over the last year
 
hammockhead said:
fullasternboth said:
So Policy statements are now announced on RR before they are officially announced in an RNRTM?. Hardly Satisfactory.
But surely more fun.
I'm all for gossip, scandal, speculation, dishing the dirt, etc. But I draw the line at Policy Announcements. Perhaps Alistair Campbell is running the CMR press offce now.

To be completey paranoid as well, how do we know the bearer of the news is who he say's he is, we have seen some walts on this site. :twisted:
(Steady Masterchief, I believe you)
 

WarMonger

War Hero
fullasternboth said:
hammockhead said:
fullasternboth said:
So Policy statements are now announced on RR before they are officially announced in an RNRTM?. Hardly Satisfactory.
But surely more fun.
I'm all for gossip, scandal, speculation, dishing the dirt, etc. But I draw the line at Policy Announcements. Perhaps Alistair Campbell is running the CMR press offce now.

To be completey paranoid as well, how do we know the bearer of the news is who he say's he is, we have seen some walts on this site. :twisted:
(Steady Masterchief, I believe you)
You mean someone is running CMR..... :twisted: :twisted: !!
 

hammockhead

Lantern Swinger
As I say, if it happens there will be a formal document setting it out.

When the R's were put in, it was the practice for changes to regulations concerning commissions, uniforms, etc. to go to the King for approval through Admiralty Orders in Council. See here for some examples. I don't know what the current procedure is, but the last time the Admiralty tried to change the width of sleeve lace without getting the King's formal approval, the King ordered that the Royal Family would continue to wear the old lace approved by him.

If you go back far enough, every change in regulations had to go through the King: this is an amusingly inconsequential example.
 

Brains

Lantern Swinger
WarMonger said:
All very well and some elements of your response are correct however, the areas within which you indicate their roles lie i.e. sub ops etc...how many people do they exactly need....many of the roles that are undertaken by the RNR especially at officer level are niche areas that by and large the RN do not have expertise in granted..but with the word niche goes another word and that is small!!....in order to fill these niche areas is it necessary that such a large portion of new entrants to the RNR have to be officers..I dont think so.....especially when the RN are looking to reducing the manning level by 15,000 and that these reductions are going to be aimed at SR's and notably OFFICERS. There seems to be an anomally with as you say what the "RN" wants!

Whether you like it or not the ground swell of opinion from many people in the RNR and the fact is that currently the RNR and many units are top heavy organisations...this is not a local view I have heard the same view expressed not just from other reservists but also RN CWO's who have visited many units over the last year
Not trying to have a go at you, but you are missing the point. The RNR is a pool of skills that the RN requires in times of stretch, crisis, tension and war. The RNR can not be 'top heavy' in terms of requirement. The RN is very clear on exactly how many officers it needs in each rank within each specialistion.

If you look at the RNR as a stand-alone organisation (which it is not), i.e. consider it separate from the RN, then you might notice that it is heavy on officers, but the RNR does not have a stand-alone function and does not require the normal ratio of JRs:SRs:Officers in order to deliver the capability. As I said before, a normal(ish) ratio makes for an easier time in the running of an RNRU as a ship, but that is all and whilst it is important for the morale, career management and instruction of those attending an RNRU, it is of no other capability benefit.

If you look at the reasons why the RN may need fewer than its present number of people, then consider the facts that: shore establishments are closing/'consolidating', ships' companies are smaller (eg 1100 on a CVS with air group, vs 490 on OCEAN with air group), we have fewer ships than we used to, We have more 'purple' facilities eg helicopter training, computers mean we don't build much for ourselves, we buy from contractors, management of shore facilities and training is increasingly contracted out. Basically, the number of service personnel required to operate the Navy is decreasing significantly.

Provided we don't reduce the size of our fleet catastrophically, we will still probably be engaged in a similar scale of operations and require a similar scale of non-peacetime specialist skills (ie the sort the RNR can provide) to be available on demand.

As it happens, the RNR is short on both rating and officer recruits, so the answer is that, yes it really is necessary to have this many and actually, there are not enough. If you look at the branches/specialisations that are taking JOs past fleetboard, you have (at least) AW, MW, NCAGS, AWNIS, InfoOps, Int Support, Sub Ops, Logs, and then some with prior skills may be utilising languages or joining MRS or CIS. That's 11 groups for starters (apologies if I've missed anyone).

So how many recruits do you need to build a pipeline of people progressing through these specialisations, remembering that attrition is going to be high at the stages of life when people are starting careers, getting married, having kids, which typically covers the age range of JOs.
My guess is that 30-40 JOs across the whole country progress to specialisations each year, so that averages at around 3 new people per year per specialisation. Doesn't sound that excessive to me.

Each specialisation has a scheme of complement detailing the exact numbers of each rank required, and officers, like SRs, can only be promoted into available slots which exist because the RN has asked for them.

So, to summarise what has become a rather massive post:
* Anyone, including CWOs, who thinks the RNR is 'top heavy' doesn't understand that the RNR is not a stand-alone organisation
* RNR Units are not manned to achieve a balance of ranks and rates, they are attended by whoever lives nearby whatever they may be.
* The RN may require fewer personnel than it did to operate but is not likely to halve its capability
* The RNR does not have enough JOs, or enough NE ratings for that matter
* The RN asks the RNR to provide what it needs, the RNR tries its best to do that. If the RN isn't getting what it needs then it is probably asking for the wrong things!
 

Jim30

Lantern Swinger
Actually Master Chief is exactly who he says he is.
The problem is that once again its the total lack of leadership from COMMARRES that is the problem.
I suggest they look up the British principles of war number 1...
 

Deckhead_Inspector

Lantern Swinger
Quote from Hammockhead "When the R's were put in, it was the practice for changes to regulations concerning commissions, uniforms, etc. to go to the King for approval through Admiralty Orders in Council. See here for some examples. I don't know what the current procedure is, but the last time the Admiralty tried to change the width of sleeve lace without getting the King's formal approval, the King ordered that the Royal Family would continue to wear the old lace approved by him."

Right, now I know. "H" as we used to call him used to show people that his lace was thicker than ours. So if we use the same rules, we can all drop the R and PMOK can keep his.
 

wanderer

Midshipman
A few slops are now being told that they can't even order the RNR flash for No1's for Senior and Junior Ratings anymore, never mind issuing them, as they are no longer available!

We need official conformation of what is happening otherwise we'll end up with some Ratings with and some without!!!!!
 

dogwatch

Badgeman
Have just finished SRCC and we had to give a couple of Command Briefs to DCMR (Col. McCabe). Talking to him afterwards - when asked about the shoulder flashes he stated that they will be gone by the end of next year, no ifs,maybe's or probablies but definately. Also think he said the AB's would wear Royal Navy shoulder tabs instead of the present RNR one.
 

fleetchief

Badgeman
i may be missing something here. why is it important to get rid of an outward RNR identity ? i wear my rig with pride, shoulder marking especially. just because we lose it, we will not be integrated any more readily. i believe we should be more keen on bringing up the professional standards of the RNR.
quote from a regular to me " a PO in the RNR is equivelant to an AB in the RN"
response- "is it true reggies are failed in source branch" conversation over.
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
I think others have summed up what I've drawn from this debacle - there are much bigger things for the RN and RNR to be worrying about than this. Really it should rank pretty low on the priority list.

The brave new world...
 

SpliceTheMainbrace

Lantern Swinger
It is a shame I just hope that it doesn't cause problems for those lucky enough to get sea time. We will get treated the same as nobody will know we are actually RNR. I find that being in the RNR creates a greater interest. Wearing the RNR flash makes it easier to create that initial communication when working with full time navy types. Makes you feel part of the ship.
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
SpliceTheMainbrace said:
It is a shame I just hope that it doesn't cause problems for those lucky enough to get sea time. We will get treated the same as nobody will know we are actually RNR. I find that being in the RNR creates a greater interest. Wearing the RNR flash makes it easier to create that initial communication when working with full time navy types. Makes you feel part of the ship.
But once you reach the dizzy heights of killick you've lost any distinction - unless of course we introduce RNR specific rate badges like the SCC.

Yes in the grand scheme of things, its relatively unimportant, but in my opinion, losing the RNR tag will be postive - it removes the ability of people to "hide" behind it. If we in the RNR want to be taken seriously by the RN we must develop a degree of professionalism and be seen to be good at our job. Hiding behind the RNR label does us no good at all; yes it may create interest, but it also creates division too.

I'm proud of the RNR and will happily defend it; however, I'm more proud of what I've achieved as a rating in the naval service. Bin the Rs and judge everyone on their abilities not on their badges.
 

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