Royal Brunei BAe Corvettes

[Potential_Officer]

I believe that these are still sitting alongside at Scotstoun next to the Type 45s being kitted out. Is there any news on the case of the Brunei Government paying up for them?

If the Brunei Navy doesn't take them, should the Royal Navy acquire them?Would the the Royal Navy acquire them? Despite being classed as Corvettes they seem to be quite capable, and in my mind might be well suited to Anti-Piracy and ship protection operations in the Med, or am I talking gash there?

Either way, opinions on the Navy and Corvettes, perhaps we should had a BAe F2000 instead of a River Class for the Falklands tasking?

 

[farenheit]

Wake me up when you're finished!

 

[dunkers]

If you can find the money in the budget to buy and maintain them, if Brunei doesn't, then perhaps the RN might buy them. Otherwise not.

 

[trehorn2]

I'll start passing the hat around.

I have 25p, a button and a key which i have no idea what it fits.

Anyone else care to contribute?

 

[Not_a_boffin]

Ho ho ho. Anybody thought to enquire why the Sultan of Brunei (among the richest men in the world) hasn't paid up for them? Perhaps it might be something to do with a number of "alleged" faults including severe aft end vibration, being 400 tonnes overweight (on a 2000te tonne target displacement!), not meeting speed, endurance, stability etc.....

AIUI, it has been talked about in MoD and we have had a very lucky escape. What precisely would we use a ship with very limited range for these days - permanent perisher target?

 

[trehorn]

Ho ho ho. Anybody thought to enquire why the Sultan of Brunei (among the richest men in the world) hasn't paid up for them? Perhaps it might be something to do with a number of "alleged" faults including severe aft end vibration, being 400 tonnes overweight (on a 2000te tonne target displacement!), not meeting speed, endurance, stability etc.....

Sounds perfect if you ask me?

 

[Potential_Officer]

I'll take that as a no then?

Anyone know what these "faults" are? The Government has already backed the sale, for export, so they should have been aware that they may have had to pay for them. Is it more likely then that we will see it sold to a different country, would that be the best option for the UK, despite the fact that many countries are beginning to build more Corvettes?

 

[stumpy]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

The above link has some interesting details of these ships. A point to bear in mind is that (and I stand by to be corrected) as usual the order for these ships would have been guaranteed by the government, so if Brunei walks away then we will pay for them anyway. So, as long as it does not come out of the defence buget but out of trade or whatever, why not use them? Didn't we do the same thing with the Type 21s?

Are these shps as capable as a Type 23? No. But they have a ship's company of 79. Why not permanently base one in the Caribbean alongside the RFA tanker. You could maintian her under contract (like the River Class) and leave her there permanently. Also, why not leave one in Gibralter to provide security for that vital chokepoint and the western Med, North Africa etc. And while we are at it, leave one in the Gulf as well. Not to replace frigates/destroyer deployments, but as a low cost supplement that will be there year in year out, revolving the crews back to the UK.

Just an idea. It seems crazy to waste these, especially if the government is going to pay for them anyway, as I expect.

 

[phil1972]

Given them to the RNR and we could have all the old sea going specialisations back again!

 

[F169]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

Didn't we do the same thing with the Type 21s?

Er...no! AS wikipedia says: The class was designed to fulfil a requirement for a relatively cheap yet modern general purpose escort vessel to fill a projected gap in the number of escort hulls in the fleet. Many older vessels were rapidly approaching the end of their useful lives yet their replacements, the Type 42 destroyer and Type 22 frigate, would not be ready until the mid-to-late 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_21_frigate

The type 21 was a superb design (except for its aluminium superstructure) which served the RN superbly well. They were in reality the first lean manned ships I reckon. I think the only time the RN has done what you describe was with the old HMS Mermaid, a ship originally built for Ghana.

 

[stumpy]

Oops! My mistake.

I still think it would be a shame to waste these ships though.

 

[Not_a_boffin]

Having been aboard the lead ship, I can guarantee you that no "waste" would be involved. I'm with Amazon's comment, these ain't 21-style vessels, they're much more like Mermaid. Anyone care to hazard a guess on the messing arrangements and the noise levels therein? You'd also need a tanker just to get the thing over to WIGS station with acceptable stability (allegedly).

I know HMG likes nothing better than paying BAES money for old rope, but I'm not entirely sure they're contractually liable to bail them out this time. Still, once British Shipbuilders (Warship Division) stands up again (rumour says next week), then I'm sure this power house of design excellence will have no problem producing world-class designs for export.....Or should they just have left that to VT who know what they're doing?

 

[geoffrey]

You've hit the nail on the head, n_a_b. BAE Systems are useless twunts when it comes to building anything. VT are very capable when it comes to building small ships. I sincerely hope that when ShipCo stands up, VT managers get the T45 and BAE managers get their P45s. Do see what I did there?

 

[Oil_Slick]

You've hit the nail on the head, n_a_b. BAE Systems are useless twunts when it comes to building anything. VT are very capable when it comes to building small ships. I sincerely hope that when ShipCo stands up, VT managers get the T45 and BAE managers get their P45s. Do see what I did there?

No votes in Pompey, lots of votes in Barrow and Glasgow = VT gets screwed

 

[Sooty]

I don't know alot about ship building but i'm not really sure where some of the comments posted about BAE come from.

What i do know is that the less ships we order the more they will cost, common sense really. The less time we spend at the design stage the more changes will happen during the construction phase. Companies come in as cheap as possible at tender stage and the only way to make money is to add it on to the variations. I think people sometimes forget that Britains ship buidling industry is not what it was. The fact that there are few ship building companies in the UK makes the industry less competetive.

I'm not aware of any serious problems with any of the ships that have been constructed by BAE but i stand to be corrected by people in a better position to comment.

 

[Nutty]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

Didn't we do the same thing with the Type 21s?

The type 21 was a superb design (except for its aluminium superstructure) which served the RN superbly well. They were in reality the first lean manned ships I reckon. I think the only time the RN has done what you describe was with the old HMS Mermaid, a ship originally built for Ghana.

Naw loads of time HMS Swifsure and Triumph two battleships being built for Chile in 1903 taken over by the RN to prevent them being sold on to the Russians who were having a spate with the Japs. 3 or 4 boats being built for Turkey in WW11 were taken over and given P Numbers instead of names. Possibly others I have no knowledge of.

Nutty

 

[Maxi_77]

I don't know alot about ship building but i'm not really sure where some of the comments posted about BAE come from.

What i do know is that the less ships we order the more they will cost, common sense really. The less time we spend at the design stage the more changes will happen during the construction phase. Companies come in as cheap as possible at tender stage and the only way to make money is to add it on to the variations. I think people sometimes forget that Britains ship buidling industry is not what it was. The fact that there are few ship building companies in the UK makes the industry less competetive.

I'm not aware of any serious problems with any of the ships that have been constructed by BAE but i stand to be corrected by people in a better position to comment.

The way we buy things is often crap. there can be serious disconects between the user the specifier the purchaser and the manufacturer. At the end the manufacturer makes what the purchaser is paying for and the user gets something that is not what he really wanted so blames the manufacturer. Competitive tendering can be good but has it's down sides and does not always save money although it never buys you a Rolls at any price.

 

[Not_a_boffin]

Sooty

I am a shipbuilder, (although not at the minute) and although there are numerous instances of BAE doing what you say and attempting to make the money on contract variations, there are also many, many examples of them stuffing things up royally. Missing the target displacement on the Brunei ships is not due to trying it on on variations, it's due to incompetence. There are numerous horror stories on CVF (although to be fair to BAE, not exclusively down to them) that will come out in the wash later. Albion (which had massive amounts spent on detail design) still managed to have a criminally low pre-outfit and outfit level by the time it was built and of course had the famous IP23 fit throughout the engine room HV electrics - great for firefighting clearly!

Your points regarding the size and competetiveness of what remains are also well made, although institutionalising this in British Shipbuilders Warship Division (to be reborn imminently) is unlikely to help. MoD actually needs to order more ships of different classes to boost design and build throughput, though in the current climate that ain't going to happen....

 

[Oil_Slick]

MoD actually needs to order more ships of different classes to boost design and build throughput, though in the current climate that ain't going to happen....

Methinks giving up and just buying proven designs might be a better bet. That MEKO 200 design the RAN chose for their ANZAC class Frigates looks pretty decent.

 

[snorko]

Now we have a potential use for these tubs sitting on the clyde. Ship them out to the north end of the gulf. They have a shallower draught than a T22 etc and the iranians would think twice about having a pop then!