RNR on RN courses.

Should the RNR have seperate courses to the RN. (With RN instructors.)

  • Good idea as both organisations get to integrate

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    88

trehorn

War Hero
I would like to start this topic by stating clearly that this is not intended to cause friction between the RNR and the RN. The recent thread proved without a doubt that the two organisations run quite differently when it comes to start and finish times, leave etc etc.

As RNR we have to complete a few course alongside our RN counterparts such as BSSC, 518, 547, Air 233, First aid to name but a few.

On most of the courses I have attended there does seem to be a lot of “stand easysâ€, long dinners, late starts and early finishes. For example,

Air 233
This is a 2 day course held at RNAS Culdose which starts on a Tuesday. Firstly, why does it start on a Tuesday and not a Monday? The course is completed by 1pm on the Wednesday and on the one I attended the number of “stand easys†and the long lunch time seemed to be in place to drag the course out that extra few hours. It got quite embarrassing, especially when the only person leaving the room was the instructor.


OG 518 Weapons Handling course.
A three day course where you learn how to handle the SA80 safely including NSP's, stripping down, cleaning and firing. You also have a power point presentation on suicide threats, watch the rules of engagement video, and that one with the three Bills who f*ck up and shoot someone.

OG547 SPO Course
A five day course where you do a weapons handling test, a range shoot, the ROE video, the Three Bills video, Suicide threat lecture and clean the rifles before learning the baton drills and judgmental packages on the Bristol and in the SAT range.

Could these two courses not be rolled into a one week long course baring in mind that 50% of the training is repeated. If you modified the ranges at Tipner or used an alternative range then you could probably knock another day (joke) off the course because you wouldn’t be sat on you’re a*rse waiting for the blasted yachties to pass. After so long I cannot believe that nothing has been done about this problem.

First Aid
I have yet to meet anyone who agrees that the 1st aid course is a 4 day course but because the book says it’s a four day course then it has to last four days. I would suggest that it could be done in three days quite easily.

The only course I couldn’t see being shortened would be the BSSC.

Is it not possible to do a few RNR only versions of the above each year which take into account the above. That way many people would reach trained strength much quicker because they would be spending less time on the courses.

I’m not trying to drive a wedge between the RNR and regulars and stop us training alongside the RN, it just seems that so much time is wasted that it would make sense to at least look at some of the above and make the most of the limited time the reservists get to spend training.

Your thoughts please?
 
I'm a professionally and ocupationally qualified trainer and am aware that, within the public services, some training is often repeated intentionally in order to provide a refresher on important subjects.

Unless you were doing the 518 & 547 courses within a fairly short time frame it may be beneficial to some, if not all, to be reminded of the importance of those issues.

Yes I agree it can be boring as hell to go over the same things you have already covered but surely it's better to get two lots of training and understand the subject than get one lot of training and forget some of it.
 

trehorn

War Hero
Point taken, but you cant use the rifle other than on the range until you've done the 547 anyway because of the judgemental package.
 

GCYZ

Lantern Swinger
Couldn't agree more.
Did an RN course once at Dryad a few years back.
Monday-Lectures
Tuesday-Lectures
Wednesday-Lectures to Lunchtime (Instructor Diving in PM)
Thursday-Lectures to Lunchtime (Could Finish early if we were able to provide own Transport, otherwise hang about for service transport)
Friday-Whole day off, Planned lectures 'Squeezed in' Mon-Wed. (played Golf that Day!)
 
The main problem is that many courses are planned around a nominal attendance number, and if that number isn't present then sometimes you can get through the course much quicker. As an example, I've just done a 2 week course designed for 12 people, however there were only 3 of us on it. The practicals were due to last full days, but with 3 of there, we blasted them out in a couple of hours. Hence, we finished most days at 3, including decent s/easies and a "gentleman's start"; however if the course was full (and the current one is) then I suspect we would've used the entire time.

Training Design is a big issue, and one that cannot be solved easily, especially when you are designing for such a varied population. It is easier and cheaper to have a standard course than to start buggering about with it. Sorry.

As for your weapons courses, it is quite possible to be weapon trained without being a member of the SPO team; QARNNS serving with 3 Cdo Bde spring to mind.
 

trehorn

War Hero
alfred_the_great said:
Training Design is a big issue, and one that cannot be solved easily, especially when you are designing for such a varied population. It is easier and cheaper to have a standard course than to start buggering about with it. Sorry.

No need to apologise. I've put this out as a general topic for discussion. I'm not after criticism or rants about the RN finishing early on a friday etc, although i am quite confused about why they start the Air 233 on a tuesday. Is it because people are getting back from weekend leave or is Culdrose so busy that that was the only time it could be programmed in?

Surely it must be better practice to have people arrive on the sunday PM to start on monday. You end up paying people to travel on a Monday and then return on the Thursday. I left work at 1700 on Monday to get to Culdrose for the course starting on Tuesday morning.

If there were say three or four RNR only 518/547 combined courses run per year then they would be full?
 
trehorn said:

...although i am quite confused about why they start the Air 233 on a tuesday. Is it because people are getting back from weekend leave or is Culdrose so busy that that was the only time it could be programmed in?

Surely it must be better practice to have people arrive on the sunday PM to start on monday. You end up paying people to travel on a Monday and then return on the Thursday. I left work at 1700 on Monday to get to Culdrose for the course starting on Tuesday morning.


No idea, you'd have to speak to Culdrose. If I were a betting man, I'd say it happens like that because it always has happened like that....


If there were say three or four RNR only 518/547 combined courses run per year then they would be full?


I doubt it, as a) it'd be a "new" course, and as such ISpec's, TO, lesson plans would have to be drawn up and thus b) it'll cost money to achieve something that is already achievable. And I suspect that if you did a benefits analysis, the money we spend on paying you lot to do both weeks would be a lot less than making up a new course....
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
And of course those with criticism made the Course Planners aware via their Post Course Discussions? Or did you keep schtum so you could secure early and get on the road?

Dripping about the course after the event does not help anyone, as the problem will perpetuate if the planners are not aware of the situation. Self-defeating exercise, I feel... :roll:
 

trehorn

War Hero
Not quite true SPB. Most courses these days have a feeback form handed out at the beginning of the course and handed in at the end. Any feedback such as this would be passed on, it certainly is by me anyway. Albeit one RNR in a course full of RN or RFA's probably wouldn't make much difference. I would suspect that the RN appreciate the extra time at home or may prefer travelling to the day to day grind on a ship or establishment?

As has been pointed out, most of the courses are designed for the RN, as RNR we fall in to suit them, not the other way round. Thats not a complaint, just a fact.

When it was pointed out that the first aid course could quite easily be done in three as opposed to four days we were told that it is a four day course and therefore it must last four days. This is despite the course being 100% RNR, in an RNR establishment with RNR instructors. Start at 10am, finish at 15.30 at the very latest.
 
trehorn said:
I would suspect that the RN appreciate the extra time at home or may prefer travelling to the day to day grind on a ship or establishment?

I thought you said you weren't trying to cause friction, or did I simply mis-interpret the comment ???
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
trehorn said:
Not quite true SPB. Most courses these days have a feeback form handed out at the beginning of the course and handed in at the end. Any feedback such as this would be passed on, it certainly is by me anyway. Albeit one RNR in a course full of RN or RFA's probably wouldn't make much difference. I would suspect that the RN appreciate the extra time at home or may prefer travelling to the day to day grind on a ship or establishment?

As has been pointed out, most of the courses are designed for the RN, as RNR we fall in to suit them, not the other way round. Thats not a complaint, just a fact.

When it was pointed out that the first aid course could quite easily be done in three as opposed to four days we were told that it is a four day course and therefore it must last four days. This is despite the course being 100% RNR, in an RNR establishment with RNR instructors. Start at 10am, finish at 15.30 at the very latest.

Well I think you may be in the minority; to the best of my recollection (RN or RN/RNR combined) I have lost count of the number of times that I have heard whispers from students who chose not to comment on the final day, so as not to delay their secure time. This to me is a selfish move, and only makes things worse for subsequent courses. The Planners do not sit in on lessons, so are not always aware that modules may take longer than stated on the schedule, or vice versa.

You also mention that a 4-day course could have been achieved in 3 days. Well in theory I suppose it could, but there are many variables. Facilities not being available, time to allow the instructors to do any extraneous duties, or even CO Standing Orders. When I attended my RPO Course at Southwick Park (which I still insist on referring to as Dryad, to the chagrin of the RMP heirarchy), who decreed that the lessons started at 0830 and secure was at 1715, including Fridays - not the Naval way we had come to know and love!

And what would the quality of instruction be if students were required to sit there for 8 hours a day with only a lunch break? We're not hothouse flowers; our brains lose stimulation if it does not have time to switch off now and again. Critics may disagree, but I maintain the students become more productive if permitted to have short, frequent breaks rather than sit in a classroom for 'death by Powerpoint'.
 

trehorn

War Hero
Not trying to cause friction at all. Wouldn't you if you were in their shoes? I know if i had been away for months on end i'd love an extra night at home with my family. I do now and i'm not away from home particularly often. Same applies if you're stuck alongside.

Check out the thread which got bitchy, cant remember the title but i stck up for the RN. If in the course of their work they manage an extra few hours at home then fair play to them. I'd do the same.
 
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