RNR on RN courses.

Discussion in 'Royal Naval Reserve (RNR)' started by trehorn, Jan 14, 2008.

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  1. Bad idea it wastes many valuable RNR man training days.

  2. Good idea as both organisations get to integrate

    0 vote(s)
  1. I would like to start this topic by stating clearly that this is not intended to cause friction between the RNR and the RN. The recent thread proved without a doubt that the two organisations run quite differently when it comes to start and finish times, leave etc etc.

    As RNR we have to complete a few course alongside our RN counterparts such as BSSC, 518, 547, Air 233, First aid to name but a few.

    On most of the courses I have attended there does seem to be a lot of “stand easysâ€, long dinners, late starts and early finishes. For example,

    Air 233
    This is a 2 day course held at RNAS Culdose which starts on a Tuesday. Firstly, why does it start on a Tuesday and not a Monday? The course is completed by 1pm on the Wednesday and on the one I attended the number of “stand easys†and the long lunch time seemed to be in place to drag the course out that extra few hours. It got quite embarrassing, especially when the only person leaving the room was the instructor.

    OG 518 Weapons Handling course.
    A three day course where you learn how to handle the SA80 safely including NSP's, stripping down, cleaning and firing. You also have a power point presentation on suicide threats, watch the rules of engagement video, and that one with the three Bills who f*ck up and shoot someone.

    OG547 SPO Course
    A five day course where you do a weapons handling test, a range shoot, the ROE video, the Three Bills video, Suicide threat lecture and clean the rifles before learning the baton drills and judgmental packages on the Bristol and in the SAT range.

    Could these two courses not be rolled into a one week long course baring in mind that 50% of the training is repeated. If you modified the ranges at Tipner or used an alternative range then you could probably knock another day (joke) off the course because you wouldn’t be sat on you’re a*rse waiting for the blasted yachties to pass. After so long I cannot believe that nothing has been done about this problem.

    First Aid
    I have yet to meet anyone who agrees that the 1st aid course is a 4 day course but because the book says it’s a four day course then it has to last four days. I would suggest that it could be done in three days quite easily.

    The only course I couldn’t see being shortened would be the BSSC.

    Is it not possible to do a few RNR only versions of the above each year which take into account the above. That way many people would reach trained strength much quicker because they would be spending less time on the courses.

    I’m not trying to drive a wedge between the RNR and regulars and stop us training alongside the RN, it just seems that so much time is wasted that it would make sense to at least look at some of the above and make the most of the limited time the reservists get to spend training.

    Your thoughts please?
  2. I'm a professionally and ocupationally qualified trainer and am aware that, within the public services, some training is often repeated intentionally in order to provide a refresher on important subjects.

    Unless you were doing the 518 & 547 courses within a fairly short time frame it may be beneficial to some, if not all, to be reminded of the importance of those issues.

    Yes I agree it can be boring as hell to go over the same things you have already covered but surely it's better to get two lots of training and understand the subject than get one lot of training and forget some of it.
  3. Point taken, but you cant use the rifle other than on the range until you've done the 547 anyway because of the judgemental package.
  4. Couldn't agree more.
    Did an RN course once at Dryad a few years back.
    Wednesday-Lectures to Lunchtime (Instructor Diving in PM)
    Thursday-Lectures to Lunchtime (Could Finish early if we were able to provide own Transport, otherwise hang about for service transport)
    Friday-Whole day off, Planned lectures 'Squeezed in' Mon-Wed. (played Golf that Day!)
  5. The main problem is that many courses are planned around a nominal attendance number, and if that number isn't present then sometimes you can get through the course much quicker. As an example, I've just done a 2 week course designed for 12 people, however there were only 3 of us on it. The practicals were due to last full days, but with 3 of there, we blasted them out in a couple of hours. Hence, we finished most days at 3, including decent s/easies and a "gentleman's start"; however if the course was full (and the current one is) then I suspect we would've used the entire time.

    Training Design is a big issue, and one that cannot be solved easily, especially when you are designing for such a varied population. It is easier and cheaper to have a standard course than to start buggering about with it. Sorry.

    As for your weapons courses, it is quite possible to be weapon trained without being a member of the SPO team; QARNNS serving with 3 Cdo Bde spring to mind.
  6. No need to apologise. I've put this out as a general topic for discussion. I'm not after criticism or rants about the RN finishing early on a friday etc, although i am quite confused about why they start the Air 233 on a tuesday. Is it because people are getting back from weekend leave or is Culdrose so busy that that was the only time it could be programmed in?

    Surely it must be better practice to have people arrive on the sunday PM to start on monday. You end up paying people to travel on a Monday and then return on the Thursday. I left work at 1700 on Monday to get to Culdrose for the course starting on Tuesday morning.

    If there were say three or four RNR only 518/547 combined courses run per year then they would be full?
  8. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    And of course those with criticism made the Course Planners aware via their Post Course Discussions? Or did you keep schtum so you could secure early and get on the road?

    Dripping about the course after the event does not help anyone, as the problem will perpetuate if the planners are not aware of the situation. Self-defeating exercise, I feel... :roll:
  9. Not quite true SPB. Most courses these days have a feeback form handed out at the beginning of the course and handed in at the end. Any feedback such as this would be passed on, it certainly is by me anyway. Albeit one RNR in a course full of RN or RFA's probably wouldn't make much difference. I would suspect that the RN appreciate the extra time at home or may prefer travelling to the day to day grind on a ship or establishment?

    As has been pointed out, most of the courses are designed for the RN, as RNR we fall in to suit them, not the other way round. Thats not a complaint, just a fact.

    When it was pointed out that the first aid course could quite easily be done in three as opposed to four days we were told that it is a four day course and therefore it must last four days. This is despite the course being 100% RNR, in an RNR establishment with RNR instructors. Start at 10am, finish at 15.30 at the very latest.
  10. I thought you said you weren't trying to cause friction, or did I simply mis-interpret the comment ???
  11. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Well I think you may be in the minority; to the best of my recollection (RN or RN/RNR combined) I have lost count of the number of times that I have heard whispers from students who chose not to comment on the final day, so as not to delay their secure time. This to me is a selfish move, and only makes things worse for subsequent courses. The Planners do not sit in on lessons, so are not always aware that modules may take longer than stated on the schedule, or vice versa.

    You also mention that a 4-day course could have been achieved in 3 days. Well in theory I suppose it could, but there are many variables. Facilities not being available, time to allow the instructors to do any extraneous duties, or even CO Standing Orders. When I attended my RPO Course at Southwick Park (which I still insist on referring to as Dryad, to the chagrin of the RMP heirarchy), who decreed that the lessons started at 0830 and secure was at 1715, including Fridays - not the Naval way we had come to know and love!

    And what would the quality of instruction be if students were required to sit there for 8 hours a day with only a lunch break? We're not hothouse flowers; our brains lose stimulation if it does not have time to switch off now and again. Critics may disagree, but I maintain the students become more productive if permitted to have short, frequent breaks rather than sit in a classroom for 'death by Powerpoint'.
  12. Not trying to cause friction at all. Wouldn't you if you were in their shoes? I know if i had been away for months on end i'd love an extra night at home with my family. I do now and i'm not away from home particularly often. Same applies if you're stuck alongside.

    Check out the thread which got bitchy, cant remember the title but i stck up for the RN. If in the course of their work they manage an extra few hours at home then fair play to them. I'd do the same.
  13. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Not trying to cause friction either, but trying to play Devil's Advocate. And Jack being Jack, he is a selfish beast so would tend to keep schtum for the sake of securing 20 minutes early... the general attitude seems to be "Fuggit - I'll never do this course again, so why bother complaining about anything?"

    Which kind of defeats the point of the thread...
  14. SPB - Like i said, the majority of courses run by the RN have feedback forms which they are very keen for you to complete. You can complete them anonymously if you wish. In some instances some of the comments are addressed prior to secure.

    I'm all for stand easys but on one course recently i phone a mate up during a standeasy at 10am. It was our first day on course and our 3rd stand easy. The course continued in the same vain. You know something is wrong when the instructor is the only person to leave the room for a stand easy. Even the RN and RFA guys were commenting on how many there'd been.

    I fully agree that feedback should be left wether good or bad and to their credit the RN seem to encourage it. I dont doubt for a minute that that these queries have been raised in RN circles and probably dismissed as unworkable.
  15. Trehorn I agree with your comment that there are sometimes to many standeasy's but on some occassions there are reasons for it. Many of the courses we attend use powerpoint presentation which may be long and boring also I am lead to believe RN instructors are only meant to instruct a course for a certain number of hours a day or so the ones I work with tell me it may also be that the instructor may have a secondary function they have to attend to.
  16. FlagWagger

    FlagWagger Book Reviewer

    Elfin Safety, perhaps - someone somewhere has realised the inherent risks associated with instructing and instituted this rule to ensure that instructors are protected from RSI (repetitive script insanity caused by presenting the same lesson day-in, day-out for years at a time) and high blood pressure (as a result of IT problems arising from using the latest version of a PowerPoint presentation on a steam powered PC supplied by FlagShip!). :) :)
  17. I have found it quite difficult to vote on my own poll because i actually agree with both of the questions i have posed. I do think the present system wasted alot of valuable RNR man hours which could be avoided with change however by training side by side with the RN it does show the RNR in a better light (well, most of the time annyway).

    It is often said that the RN are leading the way in modern teaching methods so i suppose that plenty of breaks may be the way forward. It has been while since i was at school/college. While it can be quite frustrating spending longer on a course than may otherwise be necessary when dealing with the RN i can see the reason for it. They do it day in day out and may find it more mundane than the RNR, to whome much of the training something different and new therefore keeping their interest for longer periods may be easier.
  18. To be quite honest I think the current system is fine.

    The poll question is a bit confusing by the way - "[seperate courses are a] Good idea as both organisations get to integrate". But obviously there is no integration if courses are seperate.
  19. Monday's a travelling day, so courses, drafts and appointments tend to be on Tuesdays. Why should you lose a day of your weekend just because you're on a course?
  20. Is it not just the same as travelling to work? Granted there may be longer distances involved but if you go home on weekenders you still have to get back to the ship in your time and not the navys

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