RN wins Battle Of Britain ? ? ?

imom1406

War Hero
I don't want to get humanity mixed up with History, yes they were opunished for what was seen at the time and inexcusable actions. But i do not see how pardonning them now will change history, it will only help to heal old wounds....

And it is still within some peoples living memory...to know that today a soldier would (i hope ) receive best quality care and attention in a similar situationrather than being offered a blind fold must seem unfair to those remaining direct relatives.

So it's really a humanity thing for the families....i don't think they army was wrong their historical context!
 
rosinacarley

It's a truism that a "diplomat is a man who's sent abroad to lie for his country" but access to the truth isn't always a good thing. While we in Britain may feel the whole truth is needed to feed our curiosity or sense of morality, the audience extends beyond our shores.

There are Nations, some of them current allies, who would make capital from our past plans or actions. In many cases, this would be to our national disadvantage. Some of these plans or actions would be in co-operation with other nations who may themselves be damaged by our open truthfulness.

Well intentioned "ordinary" people, sad though it is, cannot always be trusted with the truth. This is especially so if the hidden facts would compromise current operations or the wider, genuine, national interest. The "need to know" is sometimes a sound principle no matter how long ago the event was.
 
Passed-over_Loggie said:
rosinacarley

It's a truism that a "diplomat is a man who's sent abroad to lie for his country" but access to the truth isn't always a good thing. While we in Britain may feel the whole truth is needed to feed our curiosity or sense of morality, the audience extends beyond our shores.

There are Nations, some of them current allies, who would make capital from our past plans or actions. In many cases, this would be to our national disadvantage. Some of these plans or actions would be in co-operation with other nations who may themselves be damaged by our open truthfulness.

Well intentioned "ordinary" people, sad though it is, cannot always be trusted with the truth. This is especially so if the hidden facts would compromise current operations or the wider, genuine, national interest. The "need to know" is sometimes a sound principle no matter how long ago the event was.
Of course, but that does not stop my interest being picqued!
 

dt018a9667

War Hero
rosinacarley said:
I think it is fine if you are a bit of a history buff like we clearly are, but it is difficult for some people to separate history and hollywood.
I am afraid you are right with that statement, the last couple (more than one or two by the way) of generations take anything that comes from our cousins from across the sea come up with as the truth, and after all it is in colour.
 
It's not fair to say the RN won the Battle of Britain. If we'd been called upon to fight it, there is no doubt whatsoever that we'd have slapped seven different shades of the brown stuff out of the invasion force, however. But we were NOT called upon to fight it due to a number of reasons.

1. Overwhelming Naval superiority, making an invasion without total air supremacy a suicidal proposition.
2. Hitler's reluctance to engage in another Western campaign that would delay the start of Operation Barbarossa.
3. And last, but not least, the magnificent courage and skill of the RAF, in what most certainly was their finest hour.

Did the RAF save Britain from invasion in 1941? No, certainly not. They saved the RN from having to save the nation from invasion. Does this make what the RAF did any less remarkable? Equally certainly not.
 
Right then, to summarise

1. We all agree that 'the Few' were brave men who deserve our respect and admiration
2. That it is fun to tease current crabs and those recently left the service
3. That the RN did not fight the BoB but we cannot agree whether it was the BoB or the RN that stopped Sealion
4. That history is distorted to suit whosoever is retelling it
5. Kids today and americans are ignorant
6. Belly buttons have uses as a storage facility when horizontal
 

greenking

Banned
This is good stuff all around and can you imagine the discussions which will take place on the first morning of the next ACSC course in September?!!

By the way, Andrew Gordons assertions about this are not new, I heard him pontificate about this as an after dinner speech at a certain RN Wardrooms last ever Mess Dinner a few years back. What IS interesting about the Telegraphs article is the apparent support Andrew has got from the Air and Land historians.

Good on him I say! I wonder how this thread is running on Pprune........?

G
 

jumpertucker

Midshipman
Great story, love it but least we forget that the "few" were actually made up of the many,back then the Crabs needed alittle help going up-diddly-up with pilots/squadrons from Poland, Canada, and other nations and as i remind my Crab friends there were two Navy Squadrons involved in the "Battle of Britain" as well 804 and 808 NAS. So not only did we win it at sea but we helped win it in the air too.. see joint ops weren't always a **** up :lol:
 
One important question is what exactly was the BOB. Was it the battle to prevent Goering continuing to bomb the UK into sumission (OK I know that wouldn't have succeeded, the resolve of the population was too strong, but of course that didn't stop Harris believing he could do the same to Germany), or was it the battle to stop the invasion.

My suggestion is that the BOB was the first and in that case the RAF did win.

It was of course quite clearly the size and proven determination of the RN which ensured there was no invasion, if in fact there was ever a real plan to invade, or was Sealion a vane attempt to persuade the UK to accept a negotiated peace which was something Hitler had hoped for at one point.

Peter

PS why has the formatting on this page gone funny.
 

SILVER_FOX

War Hero
mad_collie deserves a special award for bring this one to our attention. It's a fantastic article which I intend to memorise for use in conversation with any crabs.

I love the bit where the author talks about a substitute victory. Shame it's too long to print on the back of my business cards. :D :D

SF
 

chockhead819

War Hero
I recall a programme on Channel 4, that explained the generals of both sides conducted wargames using units in place at that time & the conculsion was that the germans would get ashore because the invasion would be at night but by the time the RN had sailed from pompeii, guzz & scapa flow the germans wouldn't have enough gear ashore as the battleships would have blown everything up & air superiority was impossible for the germans to gain
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
chockhead819 said:
I recall a programme on Channel 4, that explained the generals of both sides conducted wargames using units in place at that time & the conculsion was that the germans would get ashore because the invasion would be at night but by the time the RN had sailed from pompeii, guzz & scapa flow the germans wouldn't have enough gear ashore as the battleships would have blown everything up & air superiority was impossible for the germans to gain
Yeah I saw that too - while the RN would have probably lost a number of surface platforms while breaching the Channel minefields, they would have got through in sufficent numbers to wipe out the invasion fleet; the Germans would then have had troops ashore without possibility of evacuation or re-supply. Not a bad programme considering that the RN only got a mention in passing :)

The UK's defensive systems were designed around London and were a good example of defence in depth - basically the first line of defence was the Home Guard, followed by a number of linked pill boxes and hard-points. The analysis concluded that Kent & Sussex would have been taken with large losses from the Volunteers, however the invasion force would have been repulsed before getting close to London.

The programme came over as well balanced - the war-gaming of the Sealion invasion plan was actually carried out by WW2 German and British commanders with both sides being aware of the capabilities and tactics of the time. The Germans seemed extremely pleased at first with the progress that they were making but were later surprised by the efficacy of the defences and the counter-attacks made.

In summary, the Brylcreem Boys major achievement in winning the Battle of Britain was not preventing an invasion per se, it was actually establishing a date in late Summer on which dinners can be held - if the BoB day was much earlier all units would still be on summer leave, the weather would be too hot for mess kit, it would clash with the summer ball, etc, while if it were much later, the weather would have turned again! :)
 

mad_collie

Midshipman
[quote="FlagWagger

The UK's defensive systems were designed around London and were a good example of defence in depth - basically the first line of defence was the Home Guard, followed by a number of linked pill boxes and hard-points. The analysis concluded that Kent & Sussex would have been taken with large losses from the Volunteers, however the invasion force would have been repulsed before getting close to London.

The programme came over as well balanced - the war-gaming of the Sealion invasion plan was actually carried out by WW2 German and British commanders with both sides being aware of the capabilities and tactics of the time. The Germans seemed extremely pleased at first with the progress that they were making but were later surprised by the efficacy of the defences and the counter-attacks made.

In summary, the Brylcreem Boys major achievement in winning the Battle of Britain was not preventing an invasion per se, it was actually establishing a date in late Summer on which dinners can be held - if the BoB day was much earlier all units would still be on summer leave, the weather would be too hot for mess kit, it would clash with the summer ball, etc, while if it were much later, the weather would have turned again! :)[/quote]

Heh heh, I've let this one go for a while now, time for the crab to reply.

The first line of defence was the chain home system (the original radar for you biffs) which is what actually won the battle (Unlike some people quote, the war) for us.

Without that we wouldn't have been able to meet the 'hun' & intercept as the lads did (and I know there were a lot of Polaks, Aussies, RN Sqns etc there as well).

It was a close run thing, and if the Germans hadn't changed their tactics we would have been stuffed & had to rely on the Snr Service to keep Jerry away.

It all comes down to jointery at the end of the day, as the whole shebang wouldnt have worked with us all there.

Not going to comment on the BoB ball being held when it is - it wouldnt do to clash with either the Summer Ball, and we cant have a function while its raining - standards ! ! ! :lol:
 

clanky

War Hero
There is some debate as to whether Op Sealion was ever a serious proposition. In Mein Kampf Hitler referred to the British Empire as "one of the 4 cornerstones of Human Civilisation". Hitler had far greater strategic, ideological and personal motivations to have a pop at Uncle Joe. Its important to remember that he was crazier than a shithouse rat.

At the time, amphib doctrine had not been developed to the point that a seaborne invasion was a foregone conclusion. The German military never achieved the level of "jointery" required to make the invasion a foregone conclusion.

While I would never belittle the sacrifices made by personnel from all services and nations involved in the Battle of Britain, the concept of a plucky few beating off a numerically, and in some ways technically superior, enemy was just the sort of propaganda message that Churchill would have wanted to present.
 
Just goes to show that some people fight wars and some (academic bookworms) sit around writing about shit they know nothing about.
The majority of so called (normaly self proffesed) academics have no real world experience other than that they find in the library.
Those that can do. Those that can't.............. well you know.
 

chockhead819

War Hero
Just like Black Buck during the Falklands, the crabs sent one Vulcan, wasted millions of gallons of aviation to drop 1 bomb on the runway they then claimed that the Argies moved the fighters closer to Buenos Aries.
What bollocks the RAF PR put this spin out, but if you do a search the mirages were moved before the attack.

On top of that they asked & were given a NO FIRE Zone over the fleet, luckily no Argies flew that night or they could have had a field day (night)
 
Lingyai said:
Just goes to show that some people fight wars and some (academic bookworms) sit around writing about shit they know nothing about.
The majority of so called (normaly self proffesed) academics have no real world experience other than that they find in the library.
Those that can do. Those that can't.............. well you know.
Your view of academics is somewhat old fashioned, you will find that today many are very involved in 'doing'. The company I work for has very close relationships with two of our local universities and we get considerable practical assistance from them in solving problems. My son also is a university lecturer and is works in the area of flood prevention and has done a lot of work on affordable flood prevention for developing countrie especially where extensive logging has taken place. It is also quite likely that the key chips in your mobile phone is the result of work carried out at one of our local universities, work that was so successful that they created what is now a very successful company out of the research.

Not all academics cannot 'do' in fact more and more can.

Peter
 
Maxi_77 said:
Lingyai said:
Just goes to show that some people fight wars and some (academic bookworms) sit around writing about shit they know nothing about.
The majority of so called (normaly self proffesed) academics have no real world experience other than that they find in the library.
Those that can do. Those that can't.............. well you know.
Your view of academics is somewhat old fashioned, you will find that today many are very involved in 'doing'. The company I work for has very close relationships with two of our local universities and we get considerable practical assistance from them in solving problems. My son also is a university lecturer and is works in the area of flood prevention and has done a lot of work on affordable flood prevention for developing countrie especially where extensive logging has taken place. It is also quite likely that the key chips in your mobile phone is the result of work carried out at one of our local universities, work that was so successful that they created what is now a very successful company out of the research.

Not all academics cannot 'do' in fact more and more can.

Peter
Not convinced as I can only go by my experiences, although I do appreciate your point of view considering the offspring's job and all that...
 

imom1406

War Hero
Lingyai said:
Maxi_77 said:
Lingyai said:
Just goes to show that some people fight wars and some (academic bookworms) sit around writing about shit they know nothing about.
The majority of so called (normaly self proffesed) academics have no real world experience other than that they find in the library.
Those that can do. Those that can't.............. well you know.
Your view of academics is somewhat old fashioned, you will find that today many are very involved in 'doing'. The company I work for has very close relationships with two of our local universities and we get considerable practical assistance from them in solving problems. My son also is a university lecturer and is works in the area of flood prevention and has done a lot of work on affordable flood prevention for developing countrie especially where extensive logging has taken place. It is also quite likely that the key chips in your mobile phone is the result of work carried out at one of our local universities, work that was so successful that they created what is now a very successful company out of the research.

Not all academics cannot 'do' in fact more and more can.

Peter
Not convinced as I can only go by my experiences, although I do appreciate your point of view considering the offspring's job and all that...
My CEO is a film producer, and has been since the seventies, he took 10 years out in the 90's to become and academic and teach film production and directing at University. He has now returned to film production. Many academics do this, so it isn't the dusty old professor who hasn't seen the outside of the college library in 40 years. Also many of these academics teach in places like BRNC and Sandhurst.

They give us a valuable insight into military strategy, where things go right and wrong and what to do to avoid the mistakes of the past.....mind you my history teacher at school was a complete tw*t!!

So steady with the old broad brush matey!
 
Lingyai said:
Maxi_77 said:
Lingyai said:
Just goes to show that some people fight wars and some (academic bookworms) sit around writing about shit they know nothing about.
The majority of so called (normaly self proffesed) academics have no real world experience other than that they find in the library.
Those that can do. Those that can't.............. well you know.
Your view of academics is somewhat old fashioned, you will find that today many are very involved in 'doing'. The company I work for has very close relationships with two of our local universities and we get considerable practical assistance from them in solving problems. My son also is a university lecturer and is works in the area of flood prevention and has done a lot of work on affordable flood prevention for developing countrie especially where extensive logging has taken place. It is also quite likely that the key chips in your mobile phone is the result of work carried out at one of our local universities, work that was so successful that they created what is now a very successful company out of the research.

Not all academics cannot 'do' in fact more and more can.

Peter
Not convinced as I can only go by my experiences, although I do appreciate your point of view considering the offspring's job and all that...
AS I said it is real current experience both through my own work and knowledfge of what is going on elsewhere. Universities today as cash generating machines, and they can only sell if they have working products that people want to buy. Why do you think companies who succeed through technical innovation locate themselves close to universities and develop close liaison with them. Not only that I have had a number of graduate apprentices working for me over the past few years and they were some bright cookies.

Peter
 

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