Rn officers and ratings training - joint or separate?

Discussion in 'The Quarterdeck' started by SILVER_FOX, Oct 19, 2011.

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  1. For years the RM have trained their officers and other ranks alongside each other and there are no doubt many good reasons for doing this. Why then does the RN still train separately?

    Surely there are many benefits in doing this including increased awareness of each others training, enabling the young officers and ratings to better understand each other and gain a wider appreciation of the hoops they each have to jump through in order to pass out at their respective levels, shared facilities and costs, etc. Its also a good way to team-build which in increasingly important in an age where there are reducing numbers in uniform.

    On the other hand I'm certain there will also be a number of reasons why the concept of joint training wouldn't work as well and there will be those with strong views against it although frankly I struggle to think of any myself. I wondered what the rest of you guys and girls think about it.


    PS: If this has already been done on this site before I'd be grateful if someone could post a link to the relevant discussion(s).
  2. What a great idea. I wonder why no one has thought of that before!!!!

    In actual fact this is a current hot topic and don't be surprised if it doesn't happen in the not too distant future.
  3. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Sir John Harvey-Jones proposed this money-saving idea as part of his "Troubleshooter" series in the early '90s. Since then, the silence has been deafening... :oops:
  4. Seaweed

    Seaweed War Hero Book Reviewer

    I would have thought the commonality of training syllabi was absolutely minimal.
  5. May be on the horizon, watch this space.

  6. The biggest problem with this concept is that it leads to a logical conclusion that Officer training moves from BRNC. As it is a "sacred cow" to many the concept tends to fall flat on it's face at that point!
  7. I think Officer training will be moved from Dartmouth at the same time as the Pongoes leave Sandhurst and the Crabs Cranwell.
  8. I advocate two money saving measures on this one.
    Close BRNC sell off the land for mega wonga.
    Scrap the Stewards branch saving even more wonga.

    Standing by for incoming
  9. I would disagree. It leads to people jumping to the conclusion that Officer training moves from BRNC, either because they want to put a stop to the discussion, or they are not able to see the alternatives. For a small consultancy fee, I could produce a two-centre holiday package that, for very little extra outlay, would achieve all the commonality of training required.
  10. Purple_twiglet

    Purple_twiglet War Hero Moderator

    Common training makes sense to a point - e.g. core skills that everyone is going to use. However, arguably BRNC is far more focused on delivering leaders / managers than RALEIGH - essentially its aim is to try to deliver raw recruits and then push them out with the equivalent level of leadership training to POLC / LRCC.

    So yes, by all means crossover, but dont forget that the two sites have very different training outcomes required of them.
  11. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    If it is being proposed purely on the basis of cost then scrap the idea now before it takes root.

    If on the other hand it is being considered as a way of improving the effectiveness of the service then it has legs, first make sure you understand the motivation..... business improvement 101 (the bit that is often forgotten/ ignored or misunderstood) Next thing is to demonstrate that it can improve the effectiveness of the service and then see how much it will cost/ save.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
  12. I suggested this many moons ago on this very site. I was given short shift (mainly from the occifer mambers) about how essential it was for occifers to train independantly, mainly so that their shortcomings were not exposed to ratings that they may have to serve with later in life
  13. janner

    janner War Hero Book Reviewer

  14. janner

    janner War Hero Book Reviewer

  15. Purple_twiglet

    Purple_twiglet War Hero Moderator

    "mainly so that their shortcomings were not exposed to ratings that they may have to serve with later in life "

    Slim - there is something in this IMHO. The BBC Sandhurst programme has been panned on ARRSE for closely following, and selectively editing the tribulations of a junior Household Cav officer who ended up being backtermed. Apparently in real life he is okay, and has been working hard - but thats only clear to the people who know him. Unfortunately, on arrival at his Bn, anyone who saw the programme will have a very different viewpoint of him gleaned from 30 minutes of Telly.

    I'd personally rather junior officers had the chance to learn how to get the basics right in an environment where junior ABs don't necessarily see them being ocassionally reamed out for failing something as it would be like the TV series - they see snapshots, not the whole picture. Far better to form your opinion of the new boss from what you see, not what you've heard via a mucker who had a mate who went through RALEIGH with the guy and saw him being beasted one day etc...
  16. :laughing2: Slim, always to the heart LOL . The criteria for entrance to BRNC!!!!!! We are not looking for normal boys. We re looking for boys who will make naval officers.There's a difference. We are looking for half-wits. The service will add the other half in its own way and in its own time. None of these boys will be very intelligent. If they had any intelligence the would't be here. They'd be applying for jobs outside which carry more pay and less work, like most of their contemporaries. But lack of intelligence need not concern us. An itelligent man never makes a good naval officer. He embarrasses everybody....:-D looking for the criteria for entrance for ratings at Raleigh :-|
  17. You are (quoting) John Winton* (again!) and I claim my free copy of (select any one from this Wiki list)


    • *We joined the navy (London : Michael Joseph, 1959)

    • We saw the sea (London : Michael Joseph, 1960)

    • Down the hatch (London : Michael Joseph, 1961)

    • Never go to sea (London : Michael Joseph, 1963)

    • All the nice girls (London : Michael Joseph, 1964)

    • HMS Leviathan (London : Michael Joseph, 1967)

    • The fighting 'Téméraire' (London : Michael Joseph, 1971)

    • One of our warships (London : Michael Joseph, 1975)

    • Good enough for Nelson (London : Michael Joseph, 1977)

    • Aircraft carrier (London : Michael Joseph, 1980)

    • The good ship Venus, or, The lass who loved a sailor : a novel (London : Michael Joseph, 1984)

    • A drowning war : a novel (London : Michael Joseph, 1985)

    • Polaris (London : Michael Joseph, 1989)

    • The night of the scorpion (Sutton : Severn House, 1994)


    • Freedom's battle : the war at sea 1939-1945 : an anthology of personal experience (London : Hutchinson, 1967)

    • The forgotten fleet (London : Michael Joseph, 1969) [account of the British Pacific Fleet]

    • HMS Campbeltown (USS Buchanan) (Windsor : Profile Publications, 1971) [Profile Warship No. 5]

    • The little wonder : the story of the Festiniog Railway (London : Michael Joseph, 1975)

    • Sir Walter Raleigh (London : Michael Joseph, 1975)

    • Air power at sea 1939-1945 (London : Sidgwick & Jackson, 1976)

    • Hurrah for the life of a sailor : life on the lower-deck of the Victorian Navy (London : Michael Joseph, 1977)

    • The Victoria Cross at sea (London : Michael Joseph, 1978)

    • War in the Pacific : Pearl Harbor to Tokyo Bay (London : Sidgwick & Jackson, 1978)

    • Sink the Haguro! : the last destroyer action of the Second World War (London : Seeley, 1979)

    • Hands to action stations! : naval poetry and verse from World War Two (Denbigh : Bluejacket, 1980)

    • Find, fix and strike! : the Fleet Air Arm at war 1939-1945 (London : Batsford, 1980)

    • Below the belt : novelty, subterfuge and surprise in naval warfare (London : Conway Maritime, 1981)

    • Jellicoe (London : Michael Joseph, 1981) [biography of Admiral Earl John Rushworth Jellicoe]

    • Captains and kings : the Royal Family and the Royal Navy, 1901-1981 (Denbigh : Bluejacket, 1981)

    • Convoy : the defence of sea trade 1890-1980 (London : Michael Joseph, 1983)

    • The death of the Scharnhorst (Chichester : Antony Bird, 1983)

    • The litte wonder : 150 years of Festiniog Railway (Revised edition) (London : Michael Joseph, 1986)

    • Carrier Glorious : the life & death of an aircraft carrier (London : Leo Cooper, 1986)

    • Air power at sea [1940 to today] (London : Sidgwick & Jackson, 1987)

    • Warrior : the first and the last (London : Maritime Books, 1987)

    • ULTRA at sea (London : Leo Cooper, 1988)

    • The naval heritage of Portsmouth (Southampton : Ensign, 1989)

    • For those in peril : fifty years of Royal Navy search and rescue (London : Robert Hale, 1992)

    • Ultra in the Pacific : how breaking Japanese codes & cyphers affected naval operations against Japan 1941-45 (London : Leo Cooper, 1993)

    • Signals from the Falklands : the Navy in the Falklands conflict : an anthology of personal experience (London : Leo Cooper, 1995)

    • Cunningham (London : John Murray, 1998) [biography of Admiral Sir Andrew Browne Cunningham]

    • The submariners : life in British submarines 1901-1999 : an anthology of personal experience (London : Constable, 1999)

    • An illustrated history of the Royal Navy (London : Salamander, 2000)
  18. Purple_twiglet

    Purple_twiglet War Hero Moderator

    An exceptional author, although apparently considered PNG at several naval establishments in later life apparently due to his being a not particularly pleasant person (allegedly!).

    I have all his 'we joined the navy' series, and often use quotes from them in presentations - they are scarily true to this day - particularly the 'the Navy is always going to the dogs' graduation speech...
  19. From Cadet to LT/CDR in 14 years of service, is admirable.

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