Reserves integration and bounty vs pension

PINCH

War Hero
McGrew said:
higthepig said:
The simple answer to me is, Sign on or Shut up, you get a Bounty, you do it because you enjoy it, if you don`t agree with that statement, then sign on, its not rocket science, and for Gods sake you are RNR stop whinging or join up.

A simple solution? Not really - thanks for your incisive comment though.

Hig thank you for saying what many of us ex regulars must be thinking. If you love it so much, joinup, and get all the so called perks. Trust me half the RNR would get tollaly cheesed off with the duties and all the seatime. RNR are fine folk, but you are RESERVIST>>>>>>> :rambo: :rambo: :rambo:
 

Aldis

Lantern Swinger
Would I prefer £1500 bounty or £720/year pension for about 20 years after I retire?

A standard rate taxpayer who joined the RNR at 25 years old and stayed for 20 years would have, if they invested the whole bounty in a personal pension scheme, a fund of £399,950 at age 65. This would buy an annuity (pension) of about £30,000/year for a non-smoking male with no index linking and termination on single death. Of course, inflation would reduce this to the equivalent of about £9,000/year but it is still significantly better than £720/year.

If only I had invested my bounty!
 

PINCH

War Hero
Aldis said:
Would I prefer £1500 bounty or £720/year pension for about 20 years after I retire?

A standard rate taxpayer who joined the RNR at 25 years old and stayed for 20 years would have, if they invested the whole bounty in a personal pension scheme, a fund of £399,950 at age 65. This would buy an annuity (pension) of about £30,000/year for a non-smoking male with no index linking and termination on single death. Of course, inflation would reduce this to the equivalent of about £9,000/year but it is still significantly better than £720/year.

If only I had invested my bounty!

Do the maths again... £1950 for 20 years is £39,000 even with growth of 8% per annum that does not add up to 399,000...
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
I'm not so sure I'd worry - pension or bounty. I think I can see integration leading somewhere else. Look at the number of RNR personnel currently providing operational service (I'm guessing less than 200) - how do we justify that against the £XXM it costs to run the RNR each year.

I suspect that in its current form there is significant potential that a massive saving wedge is placed against ComMarRes in the next saving rounds. If there isn't a similar measure in now, I suspect it can't be long. Everything these days is all about balancing Op Capability against financial capacity - something has to give and I would imagine the Reserves are a juicy target right about now.
 
That is not what the National Audit Office says, as in their most recent report on the Reserve forces said that the reserves are very cheap in providing for periods of stretch.
 

Karma

War Hero
wave_dodger said:
Look at the number of RNR personnel currently providing operational service (I'm guessing less than 200) - how do we justify that against the £XXM it costs to run the RNR each year.

Even at 200, at any one point in time, that's still nearly 10 percent of the available. It is, after all, a part time commitment and we all have day jobs. If you try to increase the percentage supporting ops at any one time you're likely to end up impacting retention as families, employers etc cease support. you end up in the same vicious circle that some regular branches are suffering; high utilisation leads to poor retention leading to increased utilisation etc.

I think the whole cost issue is interesting. To deploy me will cost the RN about 35% more than a regular at the same rank and seniority, bearing in mind capitation rather than salary. That's probably similar for most at President, and a fair portion of Wildfire. However it is a stretch capability, after the 8 months for a deployment the system no longer has to pay at the same level, so over 12 month period it's probably neutral, and in a 3-4 year deployment cycle it will be significantly lower cost.
 

Karma

War Hero
PINCH said:
McGrew said:
higthepig said:
The simple answer to me is, Sign on or Shut up, you get a Bounty, you do it because you enjoy it, if you don`t agree with that statement, then sign on, its not rocket science, and for Gods sake you are RNR stop whinging or join up.

A simple solution? Not really - thanks for your incisive comment though.

Hig thank you for saying what many of us ex regulars must be thinking.

It's a specious argument, the financial reward element of reserve service is minor aspect but it's a discussion worth having. People are reservists for a host of different reasons and when you consider that some of the reserve branches don't have a regular equivalent that becomes a fairly important part of it.

If you love it so much, joinup, and get all the so called perks. Trust me half the RNR would get tollaly cheesed off with the duties and all the seatime.

You'll find that a fair few have already been through it.
 

Aldis

Lantern Swinger
PINCH said:
Aldis said:
Would I prefer £1500 bounty or £720/year pension for about 20 years after I retire?

A standard rate taxpayer who joined the RNR at 25 years old and stayed for 20 years would have, if they invested the whole bounty in a personal pension scheme, a fund of £399,950 at age 65. This would buy an annuity (pension) of about £30,000/year for a non-smoking male with no index linking and termination on single death. Of course, inflation would reduce this to the equivalent of about £9,000/year but it is still significantly better than £720/year.

If only I had invested my bounty!

Do the maths again... £1950 for 20 years is £39,000 even with growth of 8% per annum that does not add up to 399,000...

I did the maths again, I got the same answer. 8% may not seem like much but when you apply it for 20 years on capital incrementing at £1,950 per annum and then a futher 20 years to non-incremental capital, it's effing huge. You do the maths and see what you get.
 

dunkers

War Hero
According to my unit's XO about 20% of the RNR is currently on ops but that is academic.

Have also been told at the unit that if our ship's company drops below 100 then that is going to put us in the accountants' firing line. Though this is perhaps not in the spirit of the NAO report, it does tie in with Wave Dodger's comments about balancing cost with op capability.
However, one would hope that whoever makes these decisions on cost-cutting wouldn't be stupid enough to give 2,500 volunteers the chop for the sake of a relatively minor sum, in the scheme of things.

Surely there comes a time when the expense just has to be accepted, rather than cutting back all the time.
 
Ooo I wish my bounty was £1950. I think last year I got £1600. In the early years you only get I think about £500.

Like the previous poster I wish I had invested my bounty, but hey - I have had some nice holidays, a lovely spangly watch, a big end (for the car) and lots of clothes.
 

McGrew

Midshipman
Karma said:
I think the whole cost issue is interesting. To deploy me will cost the RN about 35% more than a regular at the same rank and seniority, bearing in mind capitation rather than salary. That's probably similar for most at President, and a fair portion of Wildfire. However it is a stretch capability, after the 8 months for a deployment the system no longer has to pay at the same level, so over 12 month period it's probably neutral, and in a 3-4 year deployment cycle it will be significantly lower cost.

Your comment is interesting and needs expanding. Your 35% uplift is, I assume, related to the fact that you earn more in civvie street. However I argue that the RN would get exceptional value for you and that the uplift at about this level is something of an irrelevance. (BTW - something of a generalisation on President earning more than the rest of the country.)

Now the short sighted, and somewhat bigoted, might say 'well it is not fair - why should a reservist get paid more for doing the same job'. In some respects they are right but in others they are wrong.

Take a hospital or school. An agency nurse or supply teacher will probably earn more than their full time equivalents (yes some of it will go to the agency). Look at temporaries in industry - £500 a day for some interim execs is not unusual. They trade the permanence for the short term insecurity. There are not many organisations where everybody gets paid the same and indeed the RN has gone this way with spec pay and differing rates for differing trades. Is the same true of reservists - possibly?

The other similarity is that an interim is expected to work 100% for his time and get no holiday pay. The called up reservist will get the minimum of leave. The full timer will get about a fifth of his time in training, probably only work, on average 2/3 of the year, do a bit of AT, etc. etc. While he works hard at sea, for every man at sea there is another who is in training, cushy number ashore etc. Now I can see that these comments may be inflammatory and I look forward to the return comments.

However IMHO I think that the reservists offer exceptional VFM - the whole life costs of a member of the [full time] naval service including pension divided by the number of days work that he does (over his whole service) might give an interesting result verifying the overall value of the reservist.

However have the MOD civil servants really costed this out - probably not and also probably not able to make a meaningful analysis anyway. Any change to the status quo justified on purely financial measures would never work anyway since there are so many other facets to consider.
 

jesse650

War Hero
something that does appear to be forgotten is that is a reservist whether they be TA/RAFaux/RNR is that they bring both life skills and professional skills honed in the real world. I am a Loggie (not an SA by another name). I am also involved in logistics in a private company. I was at (an unnamed) naval airstation I was shown how to work the dispatching equipment (20min brief) and then left to my own devices. The Chief came back around midday to send me off to lunch and was horrified to find that I had completed and dispatched 2 days work in a morning.lol. Was told to slow down.

This is not an isolated incident of usage of civil professional skills. I have heard of TA personel with building/electrical skills being used to set up/repair infrastructure within thier unit's sphere of influence in Theatre.

As to integration of the RNR/RN that IS happening, albeit at a slow pace, there is a rumour floating about that the RN is sending a cadre of personel through the RNR Loggie training program so they can be deployed with us or as a RN Logistics support group.

As to higs point about signing up or shutting up....well ok he's allowed his opinion, but we have signed up. To serve as and when thier lordships demand it. As the regulars have/had whether they realise it or not.

The RNR ethos has changed far beyond the "break glass in case of war" scenario. We are now deployed around the world in all the theatres that the RN/RM is involved in. Including Afgahnistan and Iraq. To say the RNR is a waste of money is a falacy. lol we do a great deal for not a lot.
 
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