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Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Competence
- Thread starterClouseau
- Start date
Not_a_boffin
War Hero
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
Not necessarily. The interval between procurements, the over-emphasis on "systems" engineering at the expense of common sense and subject matter expertise and the nature of those personnel assigned to DPA are major contributors. I personally would argue that the DPA (and elements of DLO) are now fundamentally incapable of acting as a competent engineering organisation.
Not necessarily. The interval between procurements, the over-emphasis on "systems" engineering at the expense of common sense and subject matter expertise and the nature of those personnel assigned to DPA are major contributors. I personally would argue that the DPA (and elements of DLO) are now fundamentally incapable of acting as a competent engineering organisation.
Clouseau
Banned
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
I was thinking more of the fact that with an over-relience of contrctors to fix kit onboard, we are neutering our uniformed maintainers. When the bullets start flying and the contractor cries off the maintainers will not have the where-with-all to cope.
Not_a_boffin said:
I was thinking more of the fact that with an over-relience of contrctors to fix kit onboard, we are neutering our uniformed maintainers. When the bullets start flying and the contractor cries off the maintainers will not have the where-with-all to cope.
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
IIRC a ‘recent’ article in the RNE made a large deal out of a major overhaul in situ by the ME Dept of a war canoe’s diesel generator (alternator) engine. SOP in many commercial vessels with fewer hands yet here ‘we’ were writing a chest beating paper about it. However, when you can’t wait for the change team, get the BR out and crack on.
If contractor support is not there when the excrement hits the air conditioning an engineer/tiffy/mechanic.......technician will figure out how to remove said poo, repair the damage and restart the plant. It’s what engineers do.
When the contractor is on board, watch what he or she does, ask questions, offer to help if you’ve not been detailed anyway. He or she is just someone new to learn from. It’s what engineers do.
Mind you, if it's a weekend alongside, I don't imagine many that are not duty will be taking the opportunity to learn from the OEM's representative.
IIRC a ‘recent’ article in the RNE made a large deal out of a major overhaul in situ by the ME Dept of a war canoe’s diesel generator (alternator) engine. SOP in many commercial vessels with fewer hands yet here ‘we’ were writing a chest beating paper about it. However, when you can’t wait for the change team, get the BR out and crack on.
If contractor support is not there when the excrement hits the air conditioning an engineer/tiffy/mechanic.......technician will figure out how to remove said poo, repair the damage and restart the plant. It’s what engineers do.
When the contractor is on board, watch what he or she does, ask questions, offer to help if you’ve not been detailed anyway. He or she is just someone new to learn from. It’s what engineers do.
Mind you, if it's a weekend alongside, I don't imagine many that are not duty will be taking the opportunity to learn from the OEM's representative.
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
Onboard maintenance alongside used to be done by the Fleet Maintenance Group consisting of Tiffs ,Mechs etc etc. ships staff did handover and acceptance on completion.
Seems like the FMG's are about to dissappear --or have they done so already.
Yes OK peace time --what about a war footing --the contractors possibly won't be around then.
Bring back Depot ships/Maintenance ships.
Clouseau said:
Onboard maintenance alongside used to be done by the Fleet Maintenance Group consisting of Tiffs ,Mechs etc etc. ships staff did handover and acceptance on completion.
Seems like the FMG's are about to dissappear --or have they done so already.
Yes OK peace time --what about a war footing --the contractors possibly won't be around then.
Bring back Depot ships/Maintenance ships.
Dabs
Lantern Swinger
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
Is this fictional or are you having people on? I mean, for fcuks sakes .... 'engineering competence'. The word isn't even in the dictionary, in fact I do believe that engineers go to RNEC Manadon to become incompetent. Stop whinging man. :wink:Clouseau said:
Lingyai
MIA
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
Whilst working as an engineer in the "white navy" we were a lot further down the food chain when it came to priority of stores and sometimes had arrival forecasts in excess of 6 months for things that needed fixing yesterday. We coped, we used the MacGuyver / A team mentality and somehow made it work or came up with an alternative.
As Seadog rightly said, that's what engineers do, they engineer and come up with last minute solutions to other peoples problems.
If the people you have now can't do that, then they aint engineers.
Whilst working as an engineer in the "white navy" we were a lot further down the food chain when it came to priority of stores and sometimes had arrival forecasts in excess of 6 months for things that needed fixing yesterday. We coped, we used the MacGuyver / A team mentality and somehow made it work or came up with an alternative.
As Seadog rightly said, that's what engineers do, they engineer and come up with last minute solutions to other peoples problems.
If the people you have now can't do that, then they aint engineers.
Lingyai
MIA
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
Sad that things have come to this but I have worked with recent ex mob OM's that are next to useless and last all of 5 minutes in the offshore world. They get in on the cv cos they are ex mob and employers know that used to be a good thing but sadly no longer for the young chimps coming out after a few years. This is bad for the older experienced "real" engineers that are leaving. The mob needs to get it's shit in one sock and have decent training for engineers again.
But it probably won't........
I am now an engineer in civvy street and component level is past, it is quicker and cheaper to do unit replacement but this is only any good when you have spares. Now when I fault find to that level in civvy land you are considered to be an exceptional technician.imom1406 said:
Sad that things have come to this but I have worked with recent ex mob OM's that are next to useless and last all of 5 minutes in the offshore world. They get in on the cv cos they are ex mob and employers know that used to be a good thing but sadly no longer for the young chimps coming out after a few years. This is bad for the older experienced "real" engineers that are leaving. The mob needs to get it's shit in one sock and have decent training for engineers again.
But it probably won't........
imom1406
War Hero
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
C.L.F.F. was the best training even for unit replacement, it taught you the "half split" method of tracing a fault....i still use the theory today...it helps me work out if Techies are trying to bullshit me....which they invariably are trying to do.
Lingyai said:
C.L.F.F. was the best training even for unit replacement, it taught you the "half split" method of tracing a fault....i still use the theory today...it helps me work out if Techies are trying to bullshit me....which they invariably are trying to do.
Clouseau
Banned
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
Yes OMs were not good for engineering. They were never really mechanics/engineers. When a lamp went out they couldn't change it; they called the Chief! - which is why we now have ETs. The shit is being put back in the sock.
The reason for CLS is cost. It is cheaper to contract for equipment availability than to maintain it yourself. There are obvious problems with this - as discussed earlier: what happens when you are in the middle of the ocean and haven't got a contractor to hand?! Doing this shifts financial risk to the contractor – but the OPERATIONAL RISK always remains with the RN/MOD. This is something the bean counters like to ignore.
Here's another question: What's the difference between an Engineer, Technician and Mechanic? (It's not a joke btw)
Lingyai said:
Yes OMs were not good for engineering. They were never really mechanics/engineers. When a lamp went out they couldn't change it; they called the Chief! - which is why we now have ETs. The shit is being put back in the sock.
The reason for CLS is cost. It is cheaper to contract for equipment availability than to maintain it yourself. There are obvious problems with this - as discussed earlier: what happens when you are in the middle of the ocean and haven't got a contractor to hand?! Doing this shifts financial risk to the contractor – but the OPERATIONAL RISK always remains with the RN/MOD. This is something the bean counters like to ignore.
Here's another question: What's the difference between an Engineer, Technician and Mechanic? (It's not a joke btw)
stabradop
MIA
Re: Relevant & Current Issues No.4 - Engineering Compete
Onboard maintenance alongside used to be done by the Fleet Maintenance Group consisting of Tiffs ,Mechs etc etc. ships staff did handover and acceptance on completion.
Seems like the FMG's are about to dissappear --or have they done so already.
Yes OK peace time --what about a war footing --the contractors possibly won't be around then.
Bring back Depot ships/Maintenance ships.[/quote]
Is it possible that if we ever went on a (serious) war footing the said contractors might find themselves permanently attached or even conscripted if need be...? I know that in WW2 people in certain reserved occupations didn't get called up but had to stay in those occupations until hostilities ended.
Onboard maintenance alongside used to be done by the Fleet Maintenance Group consisting of Tiffs ,Mechs etc etc. ships staff did handover and acceptance on completion.
Seems like the FMG's are about to dissappear --or have they done so already.
Yes OK peace time --what about a war footing --the contractors possibly won't be around then.
Bring back Depot ships/Maintenance ships.[/quote]
Is it possible that if we ever went on a (serious) war footing the said contractors might find themselves permanently attached or even conscripted if need be...? I know that in WW2 people in certain reserved occupations didn't get called up but had to stay in those occupations until hostilities ended.
