Rank Query

#1
Hi.

Sorry to butt in like this but I was hoping someone on your forums could help clear up a discussion a friend and I are having. I also note that discussion about the Prince William is being discouraged. Although my question has arisen due to his posting I hope it is suitably abstract and general to be allowed.

Recently The papers have been referring to Prince William as Sub lieutenant Wales. Obviously "Wales" isn't his surname but refers to his title. Is it standard military practice that titled members of society are referred to as such or is this an affectation of the press ? For example was Prince Andrew referred to as Sub Lieutenant York ?

I understand that The royal family often use their title in lieu of their actual surname, however I'd be interested to know what the official Navy protocol is and to whom it extends.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can shed some light on this subject.

Sincerely.

Simon.
 

hackle

Lantern Swinger
Moderator
#2
Lupe101 said:
Hi.

Sorry to butt in like this but I was hoping someone on your forums could help clear up a discussion a friend and I are having. I also note that discussion about the Prince William is being discouraged. Although my question has arisen due to his posting I hope it is suitably abstract and general to be allowed.

Recently The papers have been referring to Prince William as Sub lieutenant Wales. Obviously "Wales" isn't his surname but refers to his title. Is it standard military practice that titled members of society are referred to as such or is this an affectation of the press ? For example was Prince Andrew referred to as Sub Lieutenant York ?

I understand that The royal family often use their title in lieu of their actual surname, however I'd be interested to know what the official Navy protocol is and to whom it extends.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can shed some light on this subject.

Sincerely.

Simon.
There is a fuller answer which I am sure someone will kindly find time to provide. The short answer is that he IS referred to as Sub Lieutenant Wales, and the MOD said so in their press release.
 
#3
Thanks Hackle.
I did check around a little before posting and I am aware that it is the official MOD title. I should have been more specific. Do you know if this is the case for all people with titles or just royalty ? Would for example the duke of Kent be known as Lieutenant Kent if he joined the Navy and attained that rank ? Basically who can use their title rather than their surname and is it a choice or a navy protocol ?
 
#4
hackle said:
Lupe101 said:
Hi.

Sorry to butt in like this but I was hoping someone on your forums could help clear up a discussion a friend and I are having. I also note that discussion about the Prince William is being discouraged. Although my question has arisen due to his posting I hope it is suitably abstract and general to be allowed.

Recently The papers have been referring to Prince William as Sub lieutenant Wales. Obviously "Wales" isn't his surname but refers to his title. Is it standard military practice that titled members of society are referred to as such or is this an affectation of the press ? For example was Prince Andrew referred to as Sub Lieutenant York ?

I understand that The royal family often use their title in lieu of their actual surname, however I'd be interested to know what the official Navy protocol is and to whom it extends.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can shed some light on this subject.

Sincerely.

Simon.
There is a fuller answer which I am sure someone will kindly find time to provide. The short answer is that he IS referred to as Sub Lieutenant Wales, and the MOD said so in their press release.
What's his official number . Naval Officers now have numbers. His pensionable status? Cumulative Army RAF and RN service agglomerated?
 
#5
Hi. In all honesty I really don't care about his number or pensionable status. Although I'm sure they're both fascinating. I'm really just interested to know what the Official Navy protocol is when it comes to ranking members of the royal family. Do they take their title by choice ( i.e. Wales / York ) or is it a standard convention, if it's convention what level of title does it extend to ?
 

ctfairway

Lantern Swinger
#6
ceres57 said:
hackle said:
Lupe101 said:
Hi.

Sorry to butt in like this but I was hoping someone on your forums could help clear up a discussion a friend and I are having. I also note that discussion about the Prince William is being discouraged. Although my question has arisen due to his posting I hope it is suitably abstract and general to be allowed.

Recently The papers have been referring to Prince William as Sub lieutenant Wales. Obviously "Wales" isn't his surname but refers to his title. Is it standard military practice that titled members of society are referred to as such or is this an affectation of the press ? For example was Prince Andrew referred to as Sub Lieutenant York ?

I understand that The royal family often use their title in lieu of their actual surname, however I'd be interested to know what the official Navy protocol is and to whom it extends.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can shed some light on this subject.

Sincerely.

Simon.
There is a fuller answer which I am sure someone will kindly find time to provide. The short answer is that he IS referred to as Sub Lieutenant Wales, and the MOD said so in their press release.
What's his official number . Naval Officers now have numbers. His pensionable status? Cumulative Army RAF and RN service agglomerated?
Naval Officers have had Service Numbers for years!!!
 
#7
That's great thanks LTCOOTB
I thought this might be the case. So As I understand it, Both Wales and Windsor would be equally appropriate as official titles and William / the powers that be have decided that they will currently use Wales as it is traditional to do so.

Cheers. Thanks for your help.
 
#8
letthecatoutofthebag said:
Officially SLt Wales, if properly commissioned into the RN, his entry in the Navy List would read "Sub-Lieutenat His Royal Highness Prince William of Wales [plus wahtever other post-nominals he has] Royal Navy" however:

Wikipedia said:
As with Royal Family tradition, Prince William used "Wales" as a last name during his years of education, as has Prince Harry. William's York cousins in turn use "York" (other Royal Families also use their parents' title as their own working surname). Past precedent, however, is that such title-surnames are dropped from usage in adulthood, with either title alone or name and Mountbatten-Windsor being used on legal documents and banns of marriage.
Given Sandhurst and Dartmouth have often refered to as education establishments (for example, Prince William, Educated at Eton, St Andrew's University and RMAS Sandhurst) the two princes have carried over this tradition into military life. I don't know anyone who served with either the Prince of Wales or the Duke of York well enough to know what it said on their pay statements or how they were referred to.
Well, looking at the 2006 Navy List his Grandfather is....

Edinburgh, His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of, KG, KT, OM, GBE, AC, QSO.................ADM OF FLEET - 15.01.53

Interestingly, his Father is listed in the Royal Family section as a Vice Admiral but unlike his father, not on the Seniority List. Similarly the Duke of York (Honorary Captain and Admiral of the Sea Cadet Corps), the Princess Royal (Rear Admiral Chief Commandant for Women in the Royal Navy) and Prince Michael of Kent (Honorary Rear Admiral Royal Naval Reserve) are also not listed outside of the Royal Family section. Of course since 2006 various other members of the Royal Family have been assigned honorary RN posts.
 
#10
Check out Debretts. Tells you all about this kind of thing in the appropriate section and book - Etiquette and Modern Manners.
I think he's referred to as such because he is a Prince of Wales and as such can use the place in place of a surname - eg: if you were Duke of Lancaster you could be referred to in public, familiar, as "Lancaster" or on an invitation as, for example, "Lt Gen His Highness(?) Duke of Lancaster" or some similar such construct. Otherwise:

Members of the Royal Family can be known both by the name of their Royal house, and by a surname, which are not always the same. And often they do not use a surname at all.
from http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page5657.asp

Though I might have been beaten to the answer whilst writing this...
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
#11
ceres57 said:
What's his official number . Naval Officers now have numbers. His pensionable status? Cumulative Army RAF and RN service agglomerated?
Service numbers are now Tri-Service Norm, so we can transfer between services without the need to change them.

In addition to an unchanged service number, his AFPS 05 service pension is equally tri-service and accumulates, rather than agglomerates.

Nice word though. :thumright:
 
#12
Thanks to everyone who answered. I'm pretty sure we have a saisfactory answer now, it boils down to the fact that basically they can choose to be known as either.

One question however, from what I know about the navy ( which is pretty much next to nothing ) they don't tend to like wishy washy answers. does anyone know if there is an official stand on the matter ?

I can see them saying "well yes, you can be known as Wales or Windsor, that's your right as a prince, however in a more specific sense you're going to be known as wales because that's how we do things round here"
 
#13
letthecatoutofthebag said:
persona_non_grata said:
Check out Debretts. Tells you all about this kind of thing in the appropriate section and book - Etiquette and Modern Manners.
I think he's referred to as such because he is a Prince of Wales and as such can use the place in place of a surname - eg: if you were Duke of Lancaster you could be referred to in public, familiar, as "Lancaster" or on an invitation as, for example, "Lt Gen His Highness(?) Duke of Lancaster" or some similar such construct. Otherwise:

Members of the Royal Family can be known both by the name of their Royal house, and by a surname, which are not always the same. And often they do not use a surname at all.
from http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page5657.asp

Though I might have been beaten to the answer whilst writing this...
[Pendant mode on]

The Queen is actually the Duke of Lancaster, it being one of only two Royal Duchies - the other being the Duchy of Cornwall. So Lt Gen HRH the Duke of Lancaster would actually be Lt Gen HM the Queen...

[Pedant mode off]
..and in a Naval context "Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom".
 
#14
Ninja_Stoker said:
ceres57 said:
What's his official number . Naval Officers now have numbers. His pensionable status? Cumulative Army RAF and RN service agglomerated?
Service numbers are now Tri-Service Norm, so we can transfer between services without the need to change them.

In addition to an unchanged service number, his AFPS 05 service pension is equally tri-service and accumulates, rather than agglomerates.

Nice word though. :thumright:
Which is why you now have Officers coming through with 'D' service numbers - causes all sorts of fun and games. You now have the possibility of a rating transferring to the Army as an Officer, and keeping their 'D' number throughout.

You can agglomerate service pensions if you were on AFPS 75, leave, then either re-enter (in which case you'll be on AFPS 05), go FTRS or are mobilised. Your new pension will be earnt separately, but on payout will be agglomerated with your previous pension so you only get 1 payout a month.
 
#15
PartTimer said:
Ninja_Stoker said:
ceres57 said:
What's his official number . Naval Officers now have numbers. His pensionable status? Cumulative Army RAF and RN service agglomerated?
Service numbers are now Tri-Service Norm, so we can transfer between services without the need to change them.

In addition to an unchanged service number, his AFPS 05 service pension is equally tri-service and accumulates, rather than agglomerates.

Nice word though. :thumright:
Which is why you now have Officers coming through with 'D' service numbers - causes all sorts of fun and games. You now have the possibility of a rating transferring to the Army as an Officer, and keeping their 'D' number throughout.

You can agglomerate service pensions if you were on AFPS 75, leave, then either re-enter (in which case you'll be on AFPS 05), go FTRS or are mobilised. Your new pension will be earnt separately, but on payout will be agglomerated with your previous pension so you only get 1 payout a month.
Strewth! My double First in Logic from Cambridge
seems unable to cope.
AFPS 05 to FTRS with a D service number conglomeration coupled with putative agglomeration with officers maintaining those "D "numbers.
No wonder today's armed forces seem ill-equipped to fight. They have the thousands of useless MOD civil servants as their worst enemy
 
#16
ceres57 said:
PartTimer said:
Ninja_Stoker said:
ceres57 said:
What's his official number . Naval Officers now have numbers. His pensionable status? Cumulative Army RAF and RN service agglomerated?
Service numbers are now Tri-Service Norm, so we can transfer between services without the need to change them.

In addition to an unchanged service number, his AFPS 05 service pension is equally tri-service and accumulates, rather than agglomerates.

Nice word though. :thumright:
Which is why you now have Officers coming through with 'D' service numbers - causes all sorts of fun and games. You now have the possibility of a rating transferring to the Army as an Officer, and keeping their 'D' number throughout.

You can agglomerate service pensions if you were on AFPS 75, leave, then either re-enter (in which case you'll be on AFPS 05), go FTRS or are mobilised. Your new pension will be earnt separately, but on payout will be agglomerated with your previous pension so you only get 1 payout a month.
Strewth! My double First in Logic from Cambridge
seems unable to cope.
AFPS 05 to FTRS with a D service number conglomeration coupled with putative agglomeration with officers maintaining those "D "numbers.
No wonder today's armed forces seem ill-equipped to fight. They have the thousands of useless MOD civil servants as their worst enemy
Nah - that's JPA!!
 
#17
PartTimer said:
ceres57 said:
PartTimer said:
Ninja_Stoker said:
ceres57 said:
What's his official number . Naval Officers now have numbers. His pensionable status? Cumulative Army RAF and RN service agglomerated?
Service numbers are now Tri-Service Norm, so we can transfer between services without the need to change them.

In addition to an unchanged service number, his AFPS 05 service pension is equally tri-service and accumulates, rather than agglomerates.

Nice word though. :thumright:
Which is why you now have Officers coming through with 'D' service numbers - causes all sorts of fun and games. You now have the possibility of a rating transferring to the Army as an Officer, and keeping their 'D' number throughout.

You can agglomerate service pensions if you were on AFPS 75, leave, then either re-enter (in which case you'll be on AFPS 05), go FTRS or are mobilised. Your new pension will be earnt separately, but on payout will be agglomerated with your previous pension so you only get 1 payout a month.
Strewth! My double First in Logic from Cambridge
seems unable to cope.
AFPS 05 to FTRS with a D service number conglomeration coupled with putative agglomeration with officers maintaining those "D "numbers.
No wonder today's armed forces seem ill-equipped to fight. They have the thousands of useless MOD civil servants as their worst enemy
Nah - that's JPA!!
What pray is JPA?
 
#20
Lupe101 said:
That's great thanks LTCOOTB
I thought this might be the case. So As I understand it, Both Wales and Windsor would be equally appropriate as official titles and William / the powers that be have decided that they will currently use Wales as it is traditional to do so.

Cheers. Thanks for your help.
Can you imagine Wills marking all his kit with 'His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis Windsor' when he has the option of simply using 'Wales'?
 
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