RAF in plot against Fleet Air Arm again

Discussion in 'The Fleet Air Arm' started by jingly_2_zero, Dec 30, 2008.

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  1. RAF in plot against Fleet Air Arm again
    Track this topic Print story 1930s, 1970s ... disaster every time they do it

    By Lewis Page
    Posted in Government, 8th December 2008 15:03 GMT

    The Sunday Times reported on the new RAF takeover push yesterday, which is apparently operating under the unofficial slogan "one nation, one air force". It appears that Air Marshals Glenn Torpy and Jock Stirrup, heads of the RAF and of all three services respectively, would like to shut down the joint RN/RAF Harrier jumpjet force, which would put an end to fixed-wing aviation in the Navy.

    Full story below

  2. I dont have a great deal of info on this topic but i know someone who is ex-RAF and he said that he cannot see the RAf making their 100th birthday. In his opinion the RAF will merge into the FAA not the other way round!!

    Lets hope he is right!

  3. We can only hope Webby, only hope.
  4. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    This was done quite recently in this thread: RAF launches dogfight.... and this one: FAA to go?

    But I think Navy Matters has summed it all up here:2008 in review

    The crisis in the carrier strike programme is being compounded by the Royal Air Force proposing under the banner "One Nation One Air Force" to advance the out-of-service date of the Harrier GR.9 aircraft from the currently planned timescale of 2018/9 (or later), to 2013. Joint Force Harrier squadrons would start disbanding as early as next year - with the problematic Naval Strike Wing being the first candidate to go. The RAF estimates that its initiative would save the MOD a highly attractive £1 billion compared to current plans to keep the Harrier in service until 2018/19.

    The RAF's intent seems to be to free resources for the continuing ramp of its Typhoon fighter force to 232 Typhoon's at a total cost of at least £20 billion. The RAF is arguing (with some success given the already announced delay to the CVF project) that the need for Harrier's in Iraq and Afghanistan is declining, that there is no currently no operational need to deploy these at sea, and that the CVF design is optimised for the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and operating these with Harrier's for a few years would not be a cost effective option. Senior RAF officers are publicly giving only limited support to the £8 billion JCA/JSF project, if it does proceed the "One Nation One Air Force" initiative apparently advocates that the lowest cost approach for future carrier operations is for the RAF to own and man any fast jet (i.e. JCA/JSF) squadrons that can operate on RN aircraft carriers.

    In regards to the Joint Strike Fighter, on November 25 the following amazing evidence was given by General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue to the House of Commons Defence Committee:....................

    See link above for full article by Richard Beedall on his website.
  5. This is old news, Its been on the go for at least a fortnight and has been done PPRUNE

    There is some truth in this but also bear in mind that it is Lewis collins who wrote this peice and therefore more than a bit one-sided.

    Since this was published in the Times the MoD has issued a statement saying that the RAF has no intention of tatking over the other 2 air services.

    As for the FAA and AAC taking over the RAF. How would that help recruitment and retention?
  6. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Which is why many on here my not have seen it

    and PPRUNE know which bits are true? I doubt it!

    But not disbanding the fixed wing squadrons!

    "The MoD has denied almost all of this firmly, saying that Admiral Band's and Air Marshal Torpy's comments had been "misrepresented", and issuing a statement saying:

    To clarify once again, there are no RAF plans to take over the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm, nor is there any RAF campaign under the slogan "one nation, one air force". As for the comments on helicopters, there is already a single Joint Helicopter Command, which involves all three Services. There are no plans to put all helicopters under a single Service.

    Readers will note that there is no clear-cut denial of the proposal to close the Harrier force early. We asked the MoD for confirmation on this point, and were told that "it's all in the statement" - which it isn't, not quite. No further comment was offered."

    taken from here:The Register 23rd December 2008
  7. Seaweed

    Seaweed War Hero Book Reviewer

  8. The Harriers will go early to protect the RAF's rather large and decididly under employed fast jet force from any cuts…

    … It also has the rather convenient side effect of ******* over the FAA.
  9. How, pray tell, are RAF fast jets under employed Oily?

    Russian out of area activity is at levels not seen since the Cold War which is keeping the Tornado F3 and Typhoon busy. Meanwhile the latter will replace the former in the Falklands in the near future, and of course the Typhoon continues to develop its air-ground and ISR capabilities.

    The Tornado GR4 force has been providing CAS and Recce to UK and coalition forces in Iraq since 2003 despite coping with the quite significant availability issues created by contractorisation of logs and servicing. From later this year the force will also deploy to Afghanistan where it will replace the GR9 at a time when demand for air support may actually increase over Iraq due to the shift to Strategic Overwatch.

    The Harriers have been flogged hard in Afghanistan for the last 4 years and now need a break.


  10. Ah, the Tornado GR4 'Force'…

    Pray tell, how many aircraft in this mighty 'Force'?

    And on the subject of deployment to AStan by 'The Force'… why now, why couldn't the fast and shiny brigade deploy before?

    Someone worried people might notice their continuing non attendence at the big party and ask questions as to why we keep them and buy Crab Air even more fast and shiny toys?

    Perish the thought!
  11. Not this again Oily!

    The GR4s have been committed continuously to ops since 1992; that’s longer than any other UK fast jet fleet. They’ve operated over Iraq during RESONATE (North and South) and TELIC as well as Serbia and Kosovo during ALLIED FORCE. In terms of current ops, they provided long range strike, recce, CAS and SEAD/DEAD during the initial invasion of Iraq. Subsequently, they’ve been tasked for CAS for all subsequent TELICs as well as recce/ISR using Litening III, DJRP and RAPTOR.

    In terms of Afghanistan (I assume that that is what you mean by ‘Big Party’), let me turn your comments on their head. Why should we have deployed it to HERRICK earlier? Whilst the GR4s could have done so (and indeed have been requested in the past specifically for their RAPTOR capability), the austere nature of Kandahar initially made the GR7 a more suitable type because they required a shorter useable runway, and had a lower logs footprint. Additionally, at that time JFH weren’t committed to ops. Strangely however, I didn’t hear any accusations from the RN then that the RAF was engaging in similar politics to protect the Harrier fleet from cuts! I wonder why?!

    The subsequent thrashing of the GR9s in Afghanistan and the fact that Kandahar is now pretty much a MOB with far improved facilities means that the GR4s can now replace JFH on HERRICK. Originally, the GR9s were to have been replaced by the Typhoon but the diversion of training slots to the Saudis has somewhat slowed the build up of the third RAF sqn.

    However, don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story oily! I don’t know what some of you guys in the FAA would do with yourselves if you couldn’t wallow in such paranoia!!

  12. Numbers Dear Boy! Numbers!

    How many planes in 'The Force'?

    … and how many bods supporting them?
  13. Well let me see.

    Around 140 Tornado GR1/1a were upgraded to GR4 standard during the nineties. We currently have 7 operational GR4 sqns (II(AC), IX(B), 12(B), 13, 14, 31 and 617) plus an Operational Conversion Unit (XV(R)). 41(R) Sqn also has a couple of GR4s and acts as the AWC Fast Jet and Weapons Test and Evaluation Sqn (it also has GR9 and F3s).

    Exact numbers 'on the books' today would obviously not be appropriate for this forum (and nor do I know) but I would suggest that it would be significantly lower than 140. Likewise, I wouldn’t have a clue as to how many personnel are involved directly with GR4 ops.

  14. That's a lot of mud movers...
  15. Not really.

    I assume that you’re basing that statement on what is deployed on current ops.

    However, like the RN, the RAF have a wide variety of other national and NATO commitments. With ops and trg dets (eg Flags, CQWIs, TLTs, BATUS etc), the deployment schedule for any RAF and RN fast jet sqn is significant and personnel will probably spend over 6 months per year deployed.

    Remember also that trg dets are not always for our benefit. FAC trg is a classic example where RAF and RN assets (be they SH, multi engine or fast air) are employed to provide exposure to student or experienced controllers on procedures prior to deployment.

  17. can someone please tell me wether or not i'll be growing a tache soon.
    dont mind who pays me or what colour blue can i join in the lederhosen slapping down my local gin-joint (RAFA club) with all the webbing on and a slug to complete!!
  18. With grammar like that shag, you can remain in the dark blue!! :thumright:

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