Public Accounts C'ttee: "Type 45 Delays a Disgrace"

Discussion in 'The Fleet' started by soleil, Jun 23, 2009.

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  1. Bloomberg and Reuters give the more balanced views.

    Whilst I accept that Defence Procurement could be much improved (and has been improving), I don't understand people who think that highly complex systems will just magically appear and be fully functional.

    It takes car companies years to develop new cars and these ships are several orders of magnitude more complicated than a new Golf. Added to the fact the defence budget keeps being stripped, the requirements change (as new tech emerges) and it's no wonder projects go over budget.

    For those who think we should've bought Arleigh Burkes, the first ship cost over $1B in 1985, god knows how much they would cost today.

    As an aside I've no doubt the MoD has changed what "at sea" means, I bet if it's not in dry dock it's "at sea", regardless of its operational status.. I hope the ME and WE dept SRs aren't planning to take leave on these ships.
  2. :roll: :roll: 4 at sea 2 alongside in refit?????
  3. The PAC would make a more useful contribution by criticising the government and treasury for the state of the defence budget.
  4. scouse, I think you'll find that with the operational life of T23s being changed to one refit every 5 years and no doubt 45s having longer between cycles, the situation shouldn't occur where there are 2 in refit, certainly not docked down, at the same time. Time will tell the reality though the first time one suffers a major problem in fleet time which is guaranteed to happen.

    With just 6 ships there is absolutely no room for one to develop a problem. This governments defence policy, based on assumptions and blind optimism / head in the sand, is an absolute joke.
  5. It is all very well comittees saying its a disgrace but does anyone get held to account? Does anyone in Government truthfully, actually care when at the bottom line, jobs have been created\maintained and thus those people therefore pay tax to the Government and do not appear on the unemployment list.

    On the plus side at least the MPs have found something to do on this committee seeing as most political stuff nowadays seems to be done from mainland Europe.
  6. :evil: Think Nuttys covered this previously :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: and would beg to differ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
  7. Scouse, I did say "shouldn't", not "wouldn't".

    I know it's rubbish, just like everyone else knows, but it's the RN's and MoD's justification for the decision.
  8. Current Government doctrine is that these “projects†are acquired on the cheap with as much done by the Contractor (sorry, I probably meant Partner) as possible. That, of course, still doesn’t stop the Treasury directed bean counters from “re-profiling†the expenditure. For re-profile, you can read “delay†and every one of those costs more money in the long term. The other problems chugging away in the background are just logistical support ones and are, therefore, irrelevant.

    This isn’t News.
  9. "I hope the ME and WE dept SRs aren't planning to take leave on these ships"

    Heard a rumour today (from a WESR on Daring) that at least 4 and possibly 5 WE SRs are fed up and have submitted their notice on Daring.
  10. Some peers on RR :roll: will not be happy with your last??? what with her having the finest accomadation in the fleet :lol: :lol: :lol:
  11. From what I heard, plenty of WEs are getting the chance to make the most of the amazing accom at the weekends instead of going home.
  12. FlagWagger

    FlagWagger Book Reviewer

    There is a simple common sense solution to systems engineering... identify what the system has to do and allow the best engineers to develop the solution and accept that in large scale systems engineering projects the rule of thumb is "Good, cheap, quick - pick 2!".

    The problem comes when the purchaser starts putting artificial constraints onto the build, such as telling the developer how to do the job, or picking inappropriate developers for politically expedient reasons.

    About 2.5 - 3.5 years these days

    You might be surprised just how complex a modern vehicle actually is today. The typical car of today has multiple control systems connected by at least two data networks. While there's no weapon system integration to consider, the integration of the various control systems is non-trivial!
  13. You know you're in trouble when a "flag waver" starts telling an ex Command System maintainer that a modern car is nearly as difficult to engineer as a 7500 ton warship's weapon fit capable of controlling multiple missiles in flight at a closing speed to target of mach 6, featuring a fully integrated sensor suite of at least 3 different radars, ew, data links, electro-opticals, capable of handling thousands of different tracks, providing situational and navigational awareness, helo and fighter control, softkill and hardkill countermeasures and gunnery systems (with loads more I've probably forgotten as it's been a while since I've looked after one).

    And then we get started on the comms, propulsion, environmental systems etc etc....

    Yeah I can really see how a MK6 Golf compares, it's amazing VW ever get them on the road.

    If there is such a "simple solution" to systems engineering how come no engineer has ever managed it? Perhaps you should head BaE or the DE&S organisation. Some of the finest minds in the country battle with these problems but aparrently it's easy.

  14. About £600 Million with about 4 times the firepower…

  15. Au contraire dear chap…

    The 'solution' to the RN's Air Defence needs could have been met using combat proven, OTS systems…

    AEGIS, Mk41 VLS, 5" Mod45 gun, add missiles of your choice and away you go…

    PAAMS was a totally over the top Euro-solution we should have walked away from
  16. I think you'll find it is £600M for the hull, and then you have to buy the weapon systems off them. And then you're tied in to American support contracts and lose thousands of jobs as well as the UKs place at the cutting edge of Radar and other system development.

    In which war was Aegis and SM-2 combat proven?
  17. Oh and another thing

    "add missiles of your choice"

    I think you'll find it's add missiles of the Americans choice. They refused to sell us the latest versions of Harpoon and TLAM and told us we had latest ones. Plus they'd be unlikely to give us SM-3.

    Admittedly this was a few years ago, and things have probably improved - but I was chatting to a Yank operator who couldn't understand how we were tracking air targets so much better than them throughout an exercise - Spy-1D isn't all it's cracked up to be (although I stress its performance may have been improved).
  18. Does Iran Air 655 count?

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