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Pressure mounts on Cameron to hold EU referendum sooner than planned

finknottle

Banned
Another senior Conservative has broken cover and said Britain should leave the EU regardless of the deal David Cameron secures in Brussels, as the party continues to be knocked sideways by UKIP.
Former defence secretary and current TV pundit Michael Portillo said Cameron's pledge to secure a new deal for British membership was an "insincere ploy".

Source: Politics.co.uk

Full Story Here

Bring it on I say and let the people decide once and for all. For one it would scupper the swell in support for UKIP and we have had too many false promises where a referendum on EU membership is concerned. Come on Dave show us that you have a pair and carry out the will of the people.
 

fishhead

War Hero
I don't think Cameron can unilaterally announce a referendum as it has to go through the HoC.Cleggies mob would never support it and neither would Labour if only to be mischievous.So it doesn't matter if Dave grows two pairs it still isn't going to happen.
 

finknottle

Banned
I don't think Cameron can unilaterally announce a referendum as it has to go through the HoC.Cleggies mob would never support it and neither would Labour if only to be mischievous.So it doesn't matter if Dave grows two pairs it still isn't going to happen.


I see what you are saying but until it went to a vote in the H o C we won't know which way it would go. Cameron’s ploy to use it as an election winner in 2015 has gone down the swanny with the upsurge in support for UKIP.
 

finknottle

Banned
This EU issue will not go away so it will have to be a runner some time in the not too distant future. Cameron has promised it will happen (heard that one before) if the Tories win the next election but are they prepared to take the risk of loosing more votes to the likes of UKIP in the interim period.
 

Dredd

War Hero
Super Moderator
I'm lost. Can someone explain to me what our problem with the EU is again please? So I know what it is I am not supposed to like . . .
 

finknottle

Banned
I'm lost. Can someone explain to me what our problem with the EU is again please? So I know what it is I am not supposed to like . . .

You don't have to dislike anything about the EU but if and when it happens and you choose to cast a vote you will have to come down on one side or the other but you know that anyway.
 

danny

War Hero
The simple fact is David Cameron could try all he wants to push this through but its not going to happen. If the torys had won the election and there was a tory government then maybe, but they didn't and there is not.
 

MG Maniac

War Hero
I'm with Dredd on this ... what is the problem with the EU??? I'm not clear as to whether its a genuine problem or just political /media hype designed to work the masses into a feeding freansy?
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
My problem with Europe is that European laws top trump our own laws and that can lead to problems (eg extradition of Abu Qatada). The way the European project has been going, interference from Brussels is not going to get less with time - it is very likely to increase - ie things will get worse. Throw in the fact that half of Europe is bankrupt and we will increasingly be under pressure to join the Euro to help Germany prop it up.

We have a very limited say on things in Europe - we have our MEPs but Europe is a big place with lots of MEPs (and extortionate expense/subsistence claims). Renegotiation isn't something I hold out much hope for as every other EU country has to agree to our requests. I think it would be easier to hold an in/out referendum, see how the populace feels, then go from there. If the majority want out of Europe then there's no point entering complication negotiations about our position in Europe.

However, I complete agree with Danny in that it is not within CMD's gift to give a referendum as the Lib Dems wouldn't agree to it. Labour have returned to form and oppose everything the Government does, rather in the style of a petulant child, so it would never get through the HoC at present.

How things pan out will be interesting, and I think Great Britain will have to wake up to tactical voting a la Northern Ireland. Voting UKIP will split the Conservative vote and let Labour in - and Labour will never give a referendum on Europe. This has to be a Conservative thing to do, albeit with UKIP support.
 

finknottle

Banned
The simple fact is David Cameron could try all he wants to push this through but its not going to happen. If the torys had won the election and there was a tory government then maybe, but they didn't and there is not.

True, so the Tories will in all probability have to accept that they may well loose a considerable amount of support and votes to UKIP come 2015.
 

danny

War Hero
True, so the Tories will in all probability have to accept that they may well loose a considerable amount of support and votes to UKIP come 2015.

Making the prospect of a referendum on Europe zero. UKIP can promise what ever they want because they wont have to back it up. Only one party is in the position of being held to a promise on the referendum.
 

finknottle

Banned
Making the prospect of a referendum on Europe zero. UKIP can promise what ever they want because they wont have to back it up. Only one party is in the position of being held to a promise on the referendum.
How do you hold a politician to a promise, slippery/slimy things that they are.
 
The closest I think you can get a politician to have a sweat on about a promise is if something is put in their parties manifesto, but, these are becoming so wooley as to be useless.

Could or would anyone form a coalition with UKIP?
 

MG Maniac

War Hero
My problem with Europe is that European laws top trump our own laws and that can lead to problems (eg extradition of Abu Qatada). The way the European project has been going, interference from Brussels is not going to get less with time - it is very likely to increase - ie things will get worse. Throw in the fact that half of Europe is bankrupt and we will increasingly be under pressure to join the Euro to help Germany prop it up.

But isn't the EU much the same as the USA in that Federal Laws trump State Laws ??? Problem is that the EU is built up of member states who retain their own sovereignty where as the US has an overall "Supreme Being" heading up the federal machine while the EU States all retain their own individual Head of State. The EU Presidency does not hold the same sway as POTUS. I think that while we pay a bit more attention to Brussels there are other Member States who play little more than lip service to Brussels and just take as much as they can from the central pot without conceeding much towards it.

I was also under the impression that the UK, as a Member State was propping up the single currency anyway without being in the sigle currency and that we had already donated several £Bn towards bailouts for the likes of Greece, Eire, Portugal etc!


We have a very limited say on things in Europe - we have our MEPs but Europe is a big place with lots of MEPs (and extortionate expense/subsistence claims). Renegotiation isn't something I hold out much hope for as every other EU country has to agree to our requests. I think it would be easier to hold an in/out referendum, see how the populace feels, then go from there. If the majority want out of Europe then there's no point entering complication negotiations about our position in Europe.

Politics is rife with extortionate expense / subsistence claims ... we only have to look at our own HoC for evidence of that. I would live to have the ability to vote for my own payrise and get the taxpayer to subsidise my booze! I agree that re-negotiation is a none starter - The Eastern Block Countrys will lump together and block vote as they wouldn't want to upset the Bear too much etc ... so by going for re-negotiation we may end up losing more ground than we would gain. As for a straight referendum ... is that going to prove anything? Going by the turn out for the last round of local council elections average of 37% I believe but happy to be corected on that ... even so its a proportion of the country's voters which certainly wouldn't be over 50% thus not a majority!

However, I complete agree with Danny in that it is not within CMD's gift to give a referendum as the Lib Dems wouldn't agree to it. Labour have returned to form and oppose everything the Government does, rather in the style of a petulant child, so it would never get through the HoC at present.

I agree ... under the present administration a Referendum is unlikely (unless it is a attempt to woo back the UKIP deserters) however for CMD to be able to push it through he would need the Lib Dems to agree and given that Brussels is mainly a Liberal organisation that ain't going to happen.

The only way that anything would happen to push a referendum through is UKIP achieve the impossible and form the next Govt. I say impossible as UKIP have no track record in government and while we know that its the Civil Serpent Mandarins who push the buttons etc ... the direction is given from the ruling party. If the Falklands blew up again with a newly elected UKIP Govt in power would we be up the swanny without a paddle???


How things pan out will be interesting, and I think Great Britain will have to wake up to tactical voting a la Northern Ireland. Voting UKIP will split the Conservative vote and let Labour in - and Labour will never give a referendum on Europe. This has to be a Conservative thing to do, albeit with UKIP support.

I personally think that UKIP is a non starter as the only policy they seem to have any conviction about is getting out of Europe! I agree that they will probably split the Conservative vote but would they join forces as the Lib Dems did last election. Lets face it ... it was the only way the Lib Dems were going to get within a sniff of Govt! And if the Cons are in league with UKIP then would the Lib Dems side with Labour and round we go again?? As you say interesting times ahead although I think it is more of a power struggle rather than genuine caring about the Country.
 

danny

War Hero
How do you hold a politician to a promise, slippery/slimy things that they are.

Well maybe you cant. But it still does not change the fact the only chance of getting a referendum on Europe is to vote for the torys at the next election. They have said they will do it and UKIP are not going to get enough votes to get in power.
If tory voters vote ukip they are letting labour back in to power and being totally counter productive to the entire point in them voting UKIP.
 

finknottle

Banned
Often stated and true, local and general elections are totally different ball games.

Personally I want a referendum and I would vote that we get out asap.
 

danny

War Hero
Often stated and true, local and general elections are totally different ball games.

Personally I want a referendum and I would vote that we get out asap.

To do so requires you to vote Tory at the next election and you MAY get a choice.
Elect anyone else and we will carry on as is.
 

finknottle

Banned
To do so requires you to vote Tory at the next election and you MAY get a choice.
Elect anyone else and we will carry on as is.

Your right, that's the dilemma that will face those who want out but may have never voted for the Tories, a party that they may well detest in their lives.
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
Your right, that's the dilemma that will face those who want out but may have never voted for the Tories, a party that they may well detest in their lives.

And if Scotland gains independence then you won't get a say at all, as the good Mr Salmond is quite pro-European!
 
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