Portsmouth or Plymouth dockyards to close...?

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MIA
Book Reviewer
More deep water berths will be under construction in the very near future, not owning Portland hasn't stopped very high usage by the RFA's.
My understanding is that there will be a Z berth at Portland in the very near future.
 

Not_a_boffin

War Hero
A few additional facts re CVF & Berthing

1. She's not " a bit smaller than the old Ark" or 40000 tonnes. She's actually 65000 tonne at start of life, with provision to break the 70000 te barrier by OSD. Length is over 900 ft, beam at the flight deck of 220ft and max draft is 34 foot. That's all substantially bigger than Ark, or Eagle for that matter.

2. Anyone who thinks CVF could live at Marchwood has clearly never been there.

3. Non-military ports are all well and good in theory. Who is going to pay the commercial berthing rates and undertake the explosive safety case for the ship when fully bombed up?

4. Faslane is getting new berths specifcally for Astute which will be based exclusively there and should not need refuelling mid-life. When they're in, there will be very little jetty space remaining.
 

clanky

War Hero
Not_a_boffin said:
A few additional facts re CVF & Berthing

1. She's not " a bit smaller than the old Ark" or 40000 tonnes. She's actually 65000 tonne at start of life, with provision to break the 70000 te barrier by OSD. Length is over 900 ft, beam at the flight deck of 220ft and max draft is 34 foot. That's all substantially bigger than Ark, or Eagle for that matter.

2. Anyone who thinks CVF could live at Marchwood has clearly never been there.

3. Non-military ports are all well and good in theory. Who is going to pay the commercial berthing rates and undertake the explosive safety case for the ship when fully bombed up?

4. Faslane is getting new berths specifcally for Astute which will be based exclusively there and should not need refuelling mid-life. When they're in, there will be very little jetty space remaining.
The civilian port option is being considered. Lets face it, RFAs use them all the time. I have heard Milford Haven being mooted as a contender.
 

stumpy

War Hero
http://www.snp.org/policies/international-affairs/copy_of_index_html/2006-10-08.1230945146/download

The above link details the SNP's defence policy. It contains such nuggets as "Nuclear weapons will be banished from Scotland forever."

Can Tony Bliar guarantee that the SNP will not get in over the next few years, especially since 52% of Scots now want Independance?

Surely it is time to preserve and expand Portsmouth and Plymouth and start withdrawing from Faslane... To shut or shrink Portsmouth or Plymouth when the long term future of Faslane is doubtful is utter madness driven by a short term political crises rather than strategic need.
 
Guzz to stay- too much money invested in Nuclear Refit Complex.

Faslane to stay and get the carriers- good force protection measures possible, minimal outside shipping (in comparison to Pompey) and sufficient safe water (SSBN draws 16M- ergo the new carriers should make it in, albeit a tight fit!

Pompey is off- there is no reason to keep it as it stands. They have already flogged a lot of buildings (Victory Bldng included), with FLJ and Nelson Wardroom next on the list. What does that leave, other than the Vosper buildings- Old Sail Loft!

Portland may be used for basing- possibly in the same way as Falmouth is used for Argus at the moment.

A sorry state of affairs.
 

stumpy

War Hero
bongo_jeffrey said:
Guzz to stay- too much money invested in Nuclear Refit Complex.

Faslane to stay and get the carriers- good force protection measures possible, minimal outside shipping (in comparison to Pompey) and sufficient safe water (SSBN draws 16M- ergo the new carriers should make it in, albeit a tight fit!

Pompey is off- there is no reason to keep it as it stands. They have already flogged a lot of buildings (Victory Bldng included), with FLJ and Nelson Wardroom next on the list. What does that leave, other than the Vosper buildings- Old Sail Loft!

Portland may be used for basing- possibly in the same way as Falmouth is used for Argus at the moment.

Victory Building been flogged off??? I was in there only the other week.

A sorry state of affairs.
 
I am advised that Victory building has been sold- I believe that it is one of the few parts of the yard run under DLO as opposed to WSA. I am aware that it still remains manned and in use, but for how long I do not know.
 
bongo_jeffrey said:
I am advised that Victory building has been sold- I believe that it is one of the few parts of the yard run under DLO as opposed to WSA. I am aware that it still remains manned and in use, but for how long I do not know.

That used to be a common thing in the Navy -------sell it and then rent it back!! :lol:
 

Old_Hand

Lantern Swinger
Always_a_Civvy said:
There was a mini Debate on this in Westminster Hall (Commons Hansard: 5 Dec 2006, Col.67WH+) whilst I was off work sick. The Debate on the future of Pompey is below.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm061205/halltext/61205h0010.htm#06120550000005
Read the debate publication and saw the mention of training establishments in the Pompey area and that is one of the reasons Pompey should remain. I heard a rumour a couple of weeks ago that the facilities at Collingwood are going to be moved to RAF St Athans in South Wales. There was also an item on Welsh News tonight that the MOD are looking at investing billions there. St Athan has got the space to house the the training that is currently done at Collingwood. If the rumour is true then it is possible that they are looking at closing Pompey down.
 

clanky

War Hero
Old_Hand said:
Always_a_Civvy said:
There was a mini Debate on this in Westminster Hall (Commons Hansard: 5 Dec 2006, Col.67WH+) whilst I was off work sick. The Debate on the future of Pompey is below.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm061205/halltext/61205h0010.htm#06120550000005
Read the debate publication and saw the mention of training establishments in the Pompey area and that is one of the reasons Pompey should remain. I heard a rumour a couple of weeks ago that the facilities at Collingwood are going to be moved to RAF St Athans in South Wales. There was also an item on Welsh News tonight that the MOD are looking at investing billions there. St Athan has got the space to house the the training that is currently done at Collingwood. If the rumour is true then it is possible that they are looking at closing Pompey down.
Its quite possible to close Pompey Naval Base without affecting either of the training estabishments in the area. Though it would be great if they moved them as well.
 

Old_Hand

Lantern Swinger
clanky said:
Old_Hand said:
Always_a_Civvy said:
There was a mini Debate on this in Westminster Hall (Commons Hansard: 5 Dec 2006, Col.67WH+) whilst I was off work sick. The Debate on the future of Pompey is below.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm061205/halltext/61205h0010.htm#06120550000005
Read the debate publication and saw the mention of training establishments in the Pompey area and that is one of the reasons Pompey should remain. I heard a rumour a couple of weeks ago that the facilities at Collingwood are going to be moved to RAF St Athans in South Wales. There was also an item on Welsh News tonight that the MOD are looking at investing billions there. St Athan has got the space to house the the training that is currently done at Collingwood. If the rumour is true then it is possible that they are looking at closing Pompey down.
Its quite possible to close Pompey Naval Base without affecting either of the training estabishments in the area. Though it would be great if they moved them as well.
I can see where you are coming from. But I can see in the next few years or so more and more establishments will become tri-service and it would make sense to MOD to have everything in one or two locations as opposed to having them spread around the country as it is now. If they did move a large establishment like Collingwood it would certainly make it easier for them to decide which dockyard to close. And as I mentioned above, the Welsh news were saying that MOD would be looking at making at least 3,000 civilian support staff vacancies at St Athan as well as up to 5,000 military training posts there as well. It must have some truth behind it because they wheeled out Labour MP's from all over Wales to speak about it on the news. No smoke without fire eh!.
 
The Defence Training Review is looking at combining certain aspects of Army, Air Force and Navy training with a possible relocation under a Private Finance Initiative. PFI - we've seen how successful that is with the NHS and schools :roll:

Sites being considered are apparently St Athan, Cosford and Borden but no decision has yet been made - due imminently though.

The training establishment most affected will be Sultan, but how much remains in Gosport depends on which of the 2 bidders wins - probably the one that gives the highest backhander.

I can't wait to see how it affects Separated Service totals!
 

dt018a9667

War Hero
sledgehammer said:
Just one small point from another thread. If pompey is to get it in the neck,pray tell me why they are going to dredge a new channel into pompey harbour for the new big carrier?

Could it be to enhance its selling profile i.e. deep channel for big/deep draught ships, ideal for large container/ferries, liners etc? :cry:
 
Old_Hand said:
Always_a_Civvy said:
There was a mini Debate on this in Westminster Hall (Commons Hansard: 5 Dec 2006, Col.67WH+) whilst I was off work sick. The Debate on the future of Pompey is below.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm061205/halltext/61205h0010.htm#06120550000005
Read the debate publication and saw the mention of training establishments in the Pompey area and that is one of the reasons Pompey should remain. I heard a rumour a couple of weeks ago that the facilities at Collingwood are going to be moved to RAF St Athans in South Wales. There was also an item on Welsh News tonight that the MOD are looking at investing billions there. St Athan has got the space to house the the training that is currently done at Collingwood. If the rumour is true then it is possible that they are looking at closing Pompey down.
Closely reading the Minister's reply, I got that feeling too. The government are trying to relocate public sector jobs out of London and the South East where they are heavily concentrated (and house prices are highest). I thought it significant that the Minister mentioned the impact upon other public sector jobs. Relocating training etc to St.Athan's would make a lot of sense from a Treasury and political perspective - lots of jobs in a largely rural economy, moving public sector jobs from the expensive SE to the comparitivly poor Wales (thus facilitating lower rates of pay so as not to adversely impact upon private sector recruitment of skilled people). Closing Pompey could allow Gershon savings without job cuts - both a politically and fiscally attractive proposition I should have thought. Hopefully we will all be wrong and Pompey will remain as is - but having read Hansard I didn't get that impression. There is too much talk about saving money - this is clearly a savings driven measure.
 

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