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Police State

Always easy to give opinions on how it should have gone down when you weren't one of the guy's on the ground. Menedes came from a dodgy place which the police were watching, they didn't know him and yes - when he entered the tube station it may have set off panic bells in the ears of those officers following him.

But ultimately the decision to shoot came from someone higher up on the end of a radio - a decision which was based on a verbal (& probably rushed) description of the situation. They were not in a position to see it for themselves and probably felt compelled to act quickly in the form of the lesser of two evils. Personally I believe that the responsibility lies equally between the shooter and his boss and the lack of a more open investigation is unfair to the family.

What I struggle to understand is what the hell happened to using minimum force? Seven rounds is enough to drop the guy at least four times. There is a case to answer and apologies should be made, but the more time that passes the less likely these will ever happen. I suspect there are a lot of people hoping it will simply go away, but then it never will for the Menedes' family.

SF
 
The poor guy came out of a block of flats, one of which was used by a suspect in the previous day's fiasco. To my mind that is not a dodgy place and considering the number of known innocent residents perhaps more care should have been applied in surveillance.

The control panic was the result of those in charge applying innadequate resources to the problem and apparently using officers who were not fully briefed, the on foot follower appears to have not known who he was following, or who he was supposed to be following.

The armed officers arrived too late to make the stop above ground and were in effect given little choice on the basis of information passed to them but to kill, and I see no reason to point a finger at them, they were as let down by the system as was menezes, and I for one would expect them to quietly withdraw from the armed role when the chatter dies down to avoid being bounced like that again.

The seat of the trouble lay in the control room, and I suspect if it had been a male officer he would have been hung out to dry.

Peter
 
Nutty wrote:
I cannot see for the life of me why any financial compensation should be paid as the man had no financial dependants.

Because some idiot copper acting on lawful orders presumably took his life.
i believe it's called murder and usually considered a crime.
 
Lingyai said:
sboatsforever said:
Peps before we start slating the police in this country please remeber that we have just as hard a job as the guys abroad fighting wars that they shouldnt be in!
They wouldn't be slated if they didn't cock up so badly, this op was a clusterfcuk.

I think that yes the operation went totally wrong and that someone needs to be blamed! But not the oficers on the ground that are only as accurate as the information fed to them! If anyone needs hanging out to dry its the SO19 commander, Cdr Dick, and Ian Blair, who frankly in my opinion could not organise a piss up in a brewery!
 
mophead said:
Nutty wrote:
I cannot see for the life of me why any financial compensation should be paid as the man had no financial dependants.

Because some idiot copper acting on lawful orders presumably took his life.
i believe it's called murder and usually considered a crime.

Mophead

I have two thoughts on this subject, if a Police Officer or Army type shoots a Armed Para Military in NI that is OK. If he follows the rule of engagement he has been given but it turns out he was not an armed paramilitary thats Murder. Not many will work under them rules.

Two, why does modern society think everything is made better by cash compensation. It is not hurting the Old Bill cos they will pay it with your money. Cash (Shed loads of it) should be paid readily to them that are in need and were financially supported by the victim and not to them that were not supported by the dead man just cos they his brother/cousin etc.

Thats my view of the sue for compensation society

Nutty
 
SILVER_FOX said:
Always easy to give opinions on how it should have gone down when you weren't one of the guy's on the ground. Menedes came from a dodgy place which the police were watching, they didn't know him and yes - when he entered the tube station it may have set off panic bells in the ears of those officers following him.

But ultimately the decision to shoot came from someone higher up on the end of a radio - a decision which was based on a verbal (& probably rushed) description of the situation. They were not in a position to see it for themselves and probably felt compelled to act quickly in the form of the lesser of two evils. Personally I believe that the responsibility lies equally between the shooter and his boss and the lack of a more open investigation is unfair to the family.

What I struggle to understand is what the hell happened to using minimum force? Seven rounds is enough to drop the guy at least four times. There is a case to answer and apologies should be made, but the more time that passes the less likely these will ever happen. I suspect there are a lot of people hoping it will simply go away, but then it never will for the Menedes' family.

SF

Silverfox see my posting on top of page 2 as to why seven rounds, one does not ensure brain death which is what the aim is, to prevent any muscle or nerve movement to activate trigger switches etc
 
Sad as it may be about Jean Charles de Whatsisname, I feel a thousand times more sorry for the dozens of people murdered on July 7th than someone who was shot entirely wrongly but for the exact right reasons. And as the Brazilians do the whole extra-legal execution thing on a daily basis, any protests from their poxy 3rd world government should be treated with the contempt they show to street children (see any Amnesty report).

Whoever pulled the trigger honestly thought he was doing the right thing, unlike the bastards who blew people up for shits and giggles only 16 days beforehand.

Justice4Jean? Maybe. But what about Justice4EveryoneElse first?
 
Geoffrey

This is the English/Welsh Legal System it has a very strict pecking order:

1st. Politicians
2nd. Judges
3rd. Barristers
4th. Solicitors
5th. Magistrates
6th. Any other odds or Sods who have influence
7th. Other Court Staff/Officers
8th. Probation Officers
9th. Social Workers
10th. Defendants
11th. Witnesses
12th. Court Buildings resident Cat
13th. THE VICTIM

I pose the question:

"Who honestly believes that the British Legal System has anything to do with JUSTICE????????"


Nutty
 
Nutty said:
Geoffrey

This is the English/Welsh Legal System it has a very strict pecking order:

1st. Politicians
2nd. Judges
3rd. Barristers
4th. Solicitors
5th. Magistrates
6th. Any other odds or Sods who have influence
7th. Other Court Staff/Officers
8th. Probation Officers
9th. Social Workers
10th. Defendants
11th. Witnesses
12th. Court Buildings resident Cat
13th. THE VICTIM

I pose the question:

"Who honestly believes that the British Legal System has anything to do with JUSTICE????????"


Nutty

Nutty , not me mate , I think the whole lot Fxxxxxxxxg stinks , sorry about the language :twisted: :evil:
 
Nutty said:
Geoffrey

This is the English/Welsh Legal System it has a very strict pecking order:

1st. Politicians
2nd. Judges
3rd. Barristers
4th. Solicitors
5th. Magistrates
6th. Any other odds or Sods who have influence
7th. Other Court Staff/Officers
8th. Probation Officers
9th. Social Workers
10th. Defendants
11th. Witnesses
12th. Court Buildings resident Cat
13th. THE VICTIM

I think this list needs rebalancing a little as I think it lacks compassion for the Cats historic role in the criminal justice system! It should read as follows:-

Group A

1st. Politicians
2nd. Clergy
3rd. Judges

Group B

4th. Male Barristers
5th. Female Barristers
6th. Solicitors
7th The Police
8th. Magistrates
9th. Any other odds or Sods who have influence
10th. Other Court Staff/Officers
11th. Probation Officers
12th. Social Workers

Group C

13th. Defendants

Group D

14th. Witnesses
15th. Court Buildings resident Cat and any white mice that may be lurking.

Group E

16th. THE VICTIM

Group F

The Public



Group A makes law and is generally seen to be above the law, bar item 3 (the Judiciary).

Group B administers law and attempts to see that someone pays a penalty: either the defendent, a wrongly accused defendent or the victim.

Group C are in a special class of their own: on the one hand they are legally deemed innocent until shown to be otherwise, yet they are often viewed by the media and public as guilty before trial. The resources of the state are weighted against them and their defence.

Group D are incidental to the proceedings, though any witnesses may be able and willing to genuinely contribute, they are likely to suffer character assasination which no prospect of damages for defamation by the lawyers. The Court's resident Cat/Mice play out the same game of survival as the actors in the unfolding courtroom drama, which may have similar deadly consequences for the victim.

Group E were significant players until the law subordinated their interests to those of the Crown. It is possible that the victim may be fabricating a story for compensation or revenge. Assuming they have a genuine case, then they are indeed victims of the system, who like witnesses face defamation by the lawyers with no hope of redress, possible cross-examination by the defendent because the trial judge is not controlling the process properly and of course if the defendent IS guilty but gets let off, then this sends the message that victims' rights are subordinate to the rights of the defendent - double victimisation.

Group F have an interest as potential victims and as electors of the law creators in Parliament.
 

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