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Police State

I have not undergone the training but from what I understand the method of dealing with a suicide bomber is shots to the head as it stops all muscle movement immediately. If I am wrong then I do apologise. Damned if they did and damned if they didn't, I guess none of us have ever been in that position whilst serving!!!!!!
 
There was never any danger of charges being brought aginst the firearms officers. The last time it looked like this might happen - the Harry Stanly case - SO19 threw their warrent cards out of the pram and refused to carry firearms. The Met's top brass promptly sh1t themselves and the two suspended officers were reinstated on light duties.
Anyone who beleives the IPCC/CPS are totally independent probably thinks we'll find WMD's in Iraq.
There is no way Satan - sorry, Blair - would allow firearms officers to be charged. He's got enough on his plate without armed police going on strike. There would be noone to take their place. Squaddies and Bootnecks do things rather differently to PC Dixon...

Sgt: "Your Honour, my lance-jack put down suppresive fire with the GPMG. I closed with the enemy - sorry, suspect - gave him 20 rounds with the SA80a2, and posted a grenade. Then I finished the b@stard by cutting his throat with my Fairburn-Sykes."

Judge: "Sgt, the suspect was twelve years old! And he was armed with a water-pistol!"

Sgt: "Sorry, Your Honour, but he looked like a Brazilian! And we found a table-leg lying next to him!"

judge: "That's different. No case to answer. You're free to go."
 
Punisher

As Plod for 20 odd years I never took up any offer to take a fire arms course for the following reason.

1. You do not have to
2. When entering premises where suspected armed person may be the armed officers go in first. The unarmed officer do not have to go in until the premises are safe.
3. Providing the suspect/s is handcuffed made to sit and at least one officer watches the suspect all the time and is not distracted by other officers finding things we will all be safe.
4. It will not be me standing in the box of the Old Bailey Charged with Murder as did two officers who shot Stephen Waldorf in 1983.
5. I will not automatically be suspended and sent off for counseling if I do my job. Let us get this clear, every Police Officer is a "Constable" regardless of rank and if Commissioner or any person senior to myself ordered me to arrest someone and I thought he should not be arrested, lack of evidence perhaps, then I can lawfully say. "Do it yourself,you have the same power of arrest as me"
6. I will still receive the same rate of pay, give or take some recent allowances/bonus's, fire arms authorised or not.

My only surprise is that they actually find officer to take this duty on and no they would not go on strike nor did they threaten that. All they have to do is voluntary return their fire arms authorizations and London would be bereft of armed Police.

As an Officer involved in full time drug offences investigation who has forced entry to many properties I know and you should realize that often a decision has to be made in a split second with no recourse for a second opinion or to authorisation from a senior officer. Why would you do it if you felt no protection will be given by your management.

Better still put the Management in the front line holding his weapon looking down the barrel of a gun and watch his/her reaction.

Nutty
 
Nutty said:
Punisher

As Plod for 20 odd years I never took up any offer to take a fire arms course for the following reason.

1. You do not have to
2. When entering premises where suspected armed person may be the armed officers go in first. The unarmed officer do not have to go in until the premises are safe.
3. Providing the suspect/s is handcuffed made to sit and at least one officer watches the suspect all the time and is not distracted by other officers finding things we will all be safe.
4. It will not be me standing in the box of the Old Bailey Charged with Murder as did two officers who shot Stephen Waldorf in 1983.
5. I will not automatically be suspended and sent off for counseling if I do my job. Let us get this clear, every Police Officer is a "Constable" regardless of rank and if Commissioner or any person senior to myself ordered me to arrest someone and I thought he should not be arrested, lack of evidence perhaps, then I can lawfully say. "Do it yourself,you have the same power of arrest as me"
6. I will still receive the same rate of pay, give or take some recent allowances/bonus's, fire arms authorised or not.

My only surprise is that they actually find officer to take this duty on and no they would not go on strike nor did they threaten that. All they have to do is voluntary return their fire arms authorizations and London would be bereft of armed Police.

As an Officer involved in full time drug offences investigation who has forced entry to many properties I know and you should realize that often a decision has to be made in a split second with no recourse for a second opinion or to authorisation from a senior officer. Why would you do it if you felt no protection will be given by your management.

Better still put the Management in the front line holding his weapon looking down the barrel of a gun and watch his/her reaction.

Nutty

Well said.

Peter
 
Just another thought, I wonder how many who suggest we are living in a police state have ever been in a real police state nad spoken the those who actually live there?

Peter
 
The point is you cant blame the firearms officers involved. The country had just witnessed their first suicide bombers and soon after another failed attempt. The people who should be held accountable is the command and control officer. The officer on the ground is told a bomber is on the train stop him at all costs. He cant hesitate or BANG the train is gone. The person on the radio who authorised this or the person who informed them of the risk must have a long hard look at themselves. I believe from the press(standfast the replies) it was the first Special Rec Regt's first live op. The thought of prosecuting the firearms officers is laughable, I didn't see President Blair getting prosectuted for sending us into Iraq on a very blatant liar, possibly by the same people no less and getting charged with 114 british deaths and counting.
 
Sorry, but I'm sick of hearing police officers using stress/pucker factor etc as an excuse for POOR DRILLS.
Even allowing for adrenalin, why was it deemed necessary to shoot a man while he was being restrained by an other officer? He was not carrying or wearing ANYTHING that could have contained explosives. His arms were pinned, so he could not have reached for any type of concealed weapon.
After the SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy, they found one of the terrorists hiding among the hostages. There was no doubt to his identity but, because he was unarmed, the Hooligans took him alive.
If a police officer, even under extreme stress, shoots a man who is being restrained, who could not possibly be concealing explosives on his person, then that officer should never be allowed to bear arms again. He is simply not good enough.
The worrying thing is that SO19 is supposed to be the top police firearms unit in the UK, But they have'nt exactly covered themselves with glory since 7/7; one innocent man shot dead and another wounded.
 
Leviathan said:
Ok.. maybe the guy shouldn't have been shot (and 7 times with Dum Dums ffs!!), but it has to be remembered that we were at a heightened state of alert. This guy was an illegal immigrant, he was an unknown, and was obviously suspicious enough to have tabs on him.
Where did that gem come from? So did the armoury issue those or did he make his own internatiuonally illegal ammunition? As for shooting him 7 times I should imagine that's when he stopped moving otherwise it may have been 13. Commander Cressida Dicks did come in for a slating in the report, no great comfort but I doubt it will help her career any.

IMD
 
PartTimePongo said:
Except he wasn't an Illegal. Jack Straw confirmed that to the Brasilian ambassador, the press release is in the FCO website as I remember.
Just like he knew where all the other illegals in prison were???????He dont know his arse from his elbow!
 
Seems to me if the police are being prosecuted under HASAW it must be because they weren't wearing yellow surcoats in an obviously hazardous area and also discharged firearms without the correct ear protection.

Joke or what.....only in (not so) great BRITAIN
 
When I was a kid it was like living in a police state a few thumps round the back alley for daring to say it wasn't me and if you say ewt you will go down town for the rubber hose pipe. Ok we never got shot but had quite a few thumps for fock all.

The good old days? what is annoying is I was a good boy[honest]

Anyways at the end of the day somebody dropped a bollock good style.

It frightens me when Bulgaria comes into the EEC and of course heads for jolly old England. But that is another story is it not???
 
ThePunisher said:
Sorry, but I'm sick of hearing police officers using stress/pucker factor etc as an excuse for POOR DRILLS.
Even allowing for adrenalin, why was it deemed necessary to shoot a man while he was being restrained by an other officer? He was not carrying or wearing ANYTHING that could have contained explosives. His arms were pinned, so he could not have reached for any type of concealed weapon.
After the SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy, they found one of the terrorists hiding among the hostages. There was no doubt to his identity but, because he was unarmed, the Hooligans took him alive.
If a police officer, even under extreme stress, shoots a man who is being restrained, who could not possibly be concealing explosives on his person, then that officer should never be allowed to bear arms again. He is simply not good enough.
The worrying thing is that SO19 is supposed to be the top police firearms unit in the UK, But they have'nt exactly covered themselves with glory since 7/7; one innocent man shot dead and another wounded.

I don't have the detailed knowledge that others appear to have on the moment of his death however post-ers should understand that it is not neccessary for him to reach a wpn, carry the exposives, etc. What if his intention had been to command detonate a series of bombs? He did not need to "draw" anything, pull anything, release anything because when he opened his (nonexistent) coat the photosensitive command switch would have functioned. Fiction I know but given the series of fcuk ups prior to the tube station, I believe that if the firearms officers truly believed he was a bomber they made a difficult and brave call. What difference does it make that they shot him once or 30 times, he's still dead. I recall that an Argentinian POW submariner was shot a similar number of times for "touching a switch" or something similar outside of his allotted work area.


Edited to add; I thought there was a more confrontational aspect to the back garden scene with the men in black wanting him back in the house to ensure a clean sweep, whilst the boys in blue wanted him nicked.

IMD
 
I remember that. It was the Santa Fe which had been damaged by one of Endurance's Wessex. The argie boat had to beach itself.
A submarine qualified officer was sent over to stabilise the situation and whilst on the bridge ordered the Argie OOW to 'blow round'. So said Argie shouts down the voice pipe the necessary order and the panel operator reaches for the necessary valves (all this in Spanish obviously) so bootneck sentry wastes him.
 
There are some people in this thread that havent got a clue! I am ex navy so know where you are coming from. But I am now old bill and can speak from that side of things.

Like people have said Mr Menezes was here ILLIEGALLY! Now that doesnt give the police the right to shoot him seven times. BUT he was confronted by the call "ARMED POLICE STOP", yet chose to run away, He could have had explosives strapped to his bodyor in a bag and can any one tell me if there would be all this uproar if it happened in the back streets of some brazillian town? Erm NO is the answer!

Peps before we start slating the police in this country please remeber that we have just as hard a job as the guys abroad fighting wars that they shouldnt be in!
 

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