Police State

Bisley

War Hero
The point is you cant blame the firearms officers involved. The country had just witnessed their first suicide bombers and soon after another failed attempt. The people who should be held accountable is the command and control officer. The officer on the ground is told a bomber is on the train stop him at all costs. He cant hesitate or BANG the train is gone. The person on the radio who authorised this or the person who informed them of the risk must have a long hard look at themselves. I believe from the press(standfast the replies) it was the first Special Rec Regt's first live op. The thought of prosecuting the firearms officers is laughable, I didn't see President Blair getting prosectuted for sending us into Iraq on a very blatant liar, possibly by the same people no less and getting charged with 114 british deaths and counting.
 

ThePunisher

Lantern Swinger
Sorry, but I'm sick of hearing police officers using stress/pucker factor etc as an excuse for POOR DRILLS.
Even allowing for adrenalin, why was it deemed necessary to shoot a man while he was being restrained by an other officer? He was not carrying or wearing ANYTHING that could have contained explosives. His arms were pinned, so he could not have reached for any type of concealed weapon.
After the SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy, they found one of the terrorists hiding among the hostages. There was no doubt to his identity but, because he was unarmed, the Hooligans took him alive.
If a police officer, even under extreme stress, shoots a man who is being restrained, who could not possibly be concealing explosives on his person, then that officer should never be allowed to bear arms again. He is simply not good enough.
The worrying thing is that SO19 is supposed to be the top police firearms unit in the UK, But they have'nt exactly covered themselves with glory since 7/7; one innocent man shot dead and another wounded.
 
I

In_my_day

Guest
Leviathan said:
Ok.. maybe the guy shouldn't have been shot (and 7 times with Dum Dums ffs!!), but it has to be remembered that we were at a heightened state of alert. This guy was an illegal immigrant, he was an unknown, and was obviously suspicious enough to have tabs on him.
Where did that gem come from? So did the armoury issue those or did he make his own internatiuonally illegal ammunition? As for shooting him 7 times I should imagine that's when he stopped moving otherwise it may have been 13. Commander Cressida Dicks did come in for a slating in the report, no great comfort but I doubt it will help her career any.

IMD
 

andym

War Hero
PartTimePongo said:
Except he wasn't an Illegal. Jack Straw confirmed that to the Brasilian ambassador, the press release is in the FCO website as I remember.
Just like he knew where all the other illegals in prison were???????He dont know his arse from his elbow!
 

CheefTiff

Lantern Swinger
Seems to me if the police are being prosecuted under HASAW it must be because they weren't wearing yellow surcoats in an obviously hazardous area and also discharged firearms without the correct ear protection.

Joke or what.....only in (not so) great BRITAIN
 
When I was a kid it was like living in a police state a few thumps round the back alley for daring to say it wasn't me and if you say ewt you will go down town for the rubber hose pipe. Ok we never got shot but had quite a few thumps for fock all.

The good old days? what is annoying is I was a good boy[honest]

Anyways at the end of the day somebody dropped a bollock good style.

It frightens me when Bulgaria comes into the EEC and of course heads for jolly old England. But that is another story is it not???
 
I

In_my_day

Guest
ThePunisher said:
Sorry, but I'm sick of hearing police officers using stress/pucker factor etc as an excuse for POOR DRILLS.
Even allowing for adrenalin, why was it deemed necessary to shoot a man while he was being restrained by an other officer? He was not carrying or wearing ANYTHING that could have contained explosives. His arms were pinned, so he could not have reached for any type of concealed weapon.
After the SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy, they found one of the terrorists hiding among the hostages. There was no doubt to his identity but, because he was unarmed, the Hooligans took him alive.
If a police officer, even under extreme stress, shoots a man who is being restrained, who could not possibly be concealing explosives on his person, then that officer should never be allowed to bear arms again. He is simply not good enough.
The worrying thing is that SO19 is supposed to be the top police firearms unit in the UK, But they have'nt exactly covered themselves with glory since 7/7; one innocent man shot dead and another wounded.
I don't have the detailed knowledge that others appear to have on the moment of his death however post-ers should understand that it is not neccessary for him to reach a wpn, carry the exposives, etc. What if his intention had been to command detonate a series of bombs? He did not need to "draw" anything, pull anything, release anything because when he opened his (nonexistent) coat the photosensitive command switch would have functioned. Fiction I know but given the series of fcuk ups prior to the tube station, I believe that if the firearms officers truly believed he was a bomber they made a difficult and brave call. What difference does it make that they shot him once or 30 times, he's still dead. I recall that an Argentinian POW submariner was shot a similar number of times for "touching a switch" or something similar outside of his allotted work area.


Edited to add; I thought there was a more confrontational aspect to the back garden scene with the men in black wanting him back in the house to ensure a clean sweep, whilst the boys in blue wanted him nicked.

IMD
 

diesel

Lantern Swinger
I remember that. It was the Santa Fe which had been damaged by one of Endurance's Wessex. The argie boat had to beach itself.
A submarine qualified officer was sent over to stabilise the situation and whilst on the bridge ordered the Argie OOW to 'blow round'. So said Argie shouts down the voice pipe the necessary order and the panel operator reaches for the necessary valves (all this in Spanish obviously) so bootneck sentry wastes him.
 

sboatsforever

Midshipman
There are some people in this thread that havent got a clue! I am ex navy so know where you are coming from. But I am now old bill and can speak from that side of things.

Like people have said Mr Menezes was here ILLIEGALLY! Now that doesnt give the police the right to shoot him seven times. BUT he was confronted by the call "ARMED POLICE STOP", yet chose to run away, He could have had explosives strapped to his bodyor in a bag and can any one tell me if there would be all this uproar if it happened in the back streets of some brazillian town? Erm NO is the answer!

Peps before we start slating the police in this country please remeber that we have just as hard a job as the guys abroad fighting wars that they shouldnt be in!
 

Welbexian_RN

Badgeman
Our RoE are rubbish, but have you seen the video, I like the bit where the upper deck sentry nails the guy on the RIB with a single shot in the dark, well thats naval gunnery for you!
 
Not qualified in any way, shape or form to comment on Armed Police procedures, or whether Jean Charles was killed because he was a real risk. But if my son was going about his reasonable business, even if he had stayed beyond his visa permit, I'd be desolate if he was shot to death for something that was absolutely nothing to do with him.

It is entirely reasonable that the de Menezes family should be given the dignity of an open public enquiry. It won't bring the poor boy back, but it would show that UK plc admits its mistakes and treats the bereaved in a humane manner. It would also help the family to begin to put this horrific sequence of events behind them.
 

CheefTiff

Lantern Swinger
asst_dep_to_dep_asst said:
Not qualified in any way, shape or form to comment on Armed Police procedures, or whether Jean Charles was killed because he was a real risk. But if my son was going about his reasonable business, even if he had stayed beyond his visa permit, I'd be desolate if he was shot to death for something that was absolutely nothing to do with him.

It is entirely reasonable that the de Menezes family should be given the dignity of an open public enquiry. It won't bring the poor boy back, but it would show that UK plc admits its mistakes and treats the bereaved in a humane manner. It would also help the family to begin to put this horrific sequence of events behind them.
Well said sir and I concur with every word. Its time that the province of Blairopia stood up and admitted "Ooops we got it wrong " Sorry...and heres a few quid in compo
 
sboatsforever said:
Peps before we start slating the police in this country please remeber that we have just as hard a job as the guys abroad fighting wars that they shouldnt be in!
They wouldn't be slated if they didn't cock up so badly, this op was a clusterfcuk.
 
ThePunisher said:
Sorry, but I'm sick of hearing police officers using stress/pucker factor etc as an excuse for POOR DRILLS.
Even allowing for adrenalin, why was it deemed necessary to shoot a man while he was being restrained by an other officer? He was not carrying or wearing ANYTHING that could have contained explosives. His arms were pinned, so he could not have reached for any type of concealed weapon.
After the SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy, they found one of the terrorists hiding among the hostages. There was no doubt to his identity but, because he was unarmed, the Hooligans took him alive.
If a police officer, even under extreme stress, shoots a man who is being restrained, who could not possibly be concealing explosives on his person, then that officer should never be allowed to bear arms again. He is simply not good enough.
The worrying thing is that SO19 is supposed to be the top police firearms unit in the UK, But they have'nt exactly covered themselves with glory since 7/7; one innocent man shot dead and another wounded.
The Punisher

I was there, stationed as a CID Officer at Gerald Road PS, at there time of the siege, which covered the Iranian Embassy. All recorded public details indicate that the Government and Military were looking for a clean sweep. The un-armed terrorist was taken into the rear garden where with others he was filmed and photographed, alive, by Police Officer. Upon finding out he was a terrorist he was taken back inside where a member of the Regiment saw sense and prevented his execution which would of meant soldiers facing a charge of murder under British law, no argument no discussion they would have been charged, If a jury had found them guilty is a different matter.

Rightly or wrongly thats what happened. The Military were about to murder a suspect who was in lawful custody.

Also what are these poor drills. After 20+ years on the mean streets of South London who gives feck about drills, Plod faces 30 or 40 different situations on each shift. They can't even cover all the beats let alone do drills. They are not soldiers who train for 51 weeks and do it for 1, its 8 hours a day every day for real.

So why should any Plod voluntary carry a weapon when they do not have to and even less reason when ill-informed pricks like you want to crucify them.

Nutty
 
Nutty said:
Also what are these poor drills. After 20+ years on the mean streets of South London who gives feck about drills, Plod faces 30 or 40 different situations on each shift. They can't even cover all the beats let alone do drills. They are not soldiers who train for 51 weeks and do it for 1, its 8 hours a day every day for real.

Nutty
Agreed, coming from a long line of fedaralis that is correct. Soldiers do train for the most part and the feds do it every day. Anybody see combat missions? It was a competition in the states between all the "elite" units, Seals, USMC recon, SWAT, Delta etc. Everyone excelled in their own areas of fitness and drills, the cops suffered a bit on the running and swimming etc. but SWAT kicked ass on the hostage rescue ans all shooting tests. In the end it came down to 2 men in a dircet shooting match, one shot deal, of course SWAT won. Why? Because they are at war 24/7, often with little backup. Unfortunately for the feds in London they fcuked up in a big loud public way, it happens, not sure they should have got away with it, but then none of us were there and only know what we are told from the press, so for that we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I think.
 

CheefTiff

Lantern Swinger
I cannot and would not criticise the police for their behaviour however perverse it may have been. What I do criticise is their refusal to admit that they made a mistake and compensate the poor lads family.
Come on guys...own up...you got it wrong (To err is human and we all do it) so just give the lads parents the satisfaction of a government and police apology
 
Chief Tiff

Like all senior management they pass the blame down the line until it reaches a point where it can no longer be dumped. Be that person a PC, AB, CPO or Police Inspector.

This makes little difference to what ever organization is involved, a charity, PLC, Armed Service, Fire Brigade, Boys Brigade. No doubt we, have all in our time tried to pass the buck on. The more power you have the easier it is.

Many years ago the Commissioner was my immediate boss. I am not a fan, even then it was obvious his interest lay in reaching the top not being a effective Police Officer serving the public on the streets. All organisations have the ambitious, few are good at the core tasks, but still make the top.

So blame both the senior military who's man went for a piss and lost eyeball, which then started a chain reaction of poor decisions made in panic. That would have got anyone thrown off a survelience course or team a few years ago. Cardinal error. It matters little if it was their first Op. it was a basic school boy mistake which should have been removed long before they hit the streets of South London, for which management from the most junior level upwards should take responsibilty.

Then blame the Senior Police and Home Office Officials who were so busy covering themselves that any admittance would be seen as a sign of weakness. Hence no admission, I cannot see for the life of me why any financial compensation should be paid as the man had no financial dependants.

Nutty
 
It is always the same Nutty, those at the bottom of the pile usually, though not always, carry the can. A classic example is those businessmen accused of fraud connected with Enron. If they were any poor employee there would be no Parliamentary protests because they could not afford expensive lawyers and would not have friends in the City to lobby on their behalf. When you are wealthy or powerful, different rules are seen to operate, promoting a degree of cynicism about the criminal justice process.

The problem with the Menedes shooting was that the Police Commissioner spoke before he knew the full facts and slandered the victim, then having ascertained a fuller picture of the facts tried again to shift the blame onto the victim. The Menedes family deserve a public apology by the PM, who again fully backed the Police Commissioner before being fully cogniscant with the facts. Compensation should be paid by the Met. and Commissioner Blair should take personal responsibility, for his actions, and resign. Likewise, those elsewhere who did not act professionally should be invited to consider their positions. Those that decide to stay should be sacked. None of this will happen of course.

Steve.
 

CheefTiff

Lantern Swinger
I don't want to blame anyone Nutty me old chum. I just want the goverrnment and the police authorities to admit they made a mistake. I don't want a witch hunt or an enquiry because I don't believe they will achieve anything but a list of recommendations for Tony or his successor to ignore.

No mate, all I ask is that we "The British people" admit that whilst in pursuit of peace within our shores and whilst defending our citizens, we simply made an awful tragic mistake for which we are sorry. Compensation such as it may be will never ease the pain or the feeling of loss the poor parents may be feeling but it would go some way to helping them.
 
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