Police State

It crosses my mind that there is something wrong in the asylum, a gang of Police armed and dangerous,shoot an innocent man SEVEN times,and face no charges,not even the officer in charge is held accountable. Yet our poor little squaddie ,in a war zone, shoots the enemy and is on a charge for murder,please confirm im not going mad.
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
higthepig said:
It crosses my mind that there is something wrong in the asylum, a gang of Police armed and dangerous,shoot an innocent man SEVEN times,and face no charges,not even the officer in charge is held accountable. Yet our poor little squaddie ,in a war zone, shoots the enemy and is on a charge for murder,please confirm im not going mad.
My thoughts too... on the plus side, the recent arrest of Lord Levy demonstrated that we've a little way to go to a full police state.
 
higthepig said:
It crosses my mind that there is something wrong in the asylum, a gang of Police armed and dangerous,shoot an innocent man SEVEN times,and face no charges,not even the officer in charge is held accountable. Yet our poor little squaddie ,in a war zone, shoots the enemy and is on a charge for murder,please confirm im not going mad.
Only one thing more dangerous than an officer with a map and that is a cop with a gun!! Seven rounds did the knob have an epileptic attack or a nervous twitch. He vaulted the barrier yet others say he walked calmly on board not a care in the world.

Sounded like a scene from a slaughter house!!!

Yep if a squaddie riddles somebody with a burst of seven the boot would be up the rear no problemo. Call claims direct now!!!
 

Shakey

War Hero
Seven times does seem a trifle excessive, considering he was being held down and shot in the head at the time.

Perhaps that's why the only charges are against Health and Safety breaches - indiscriminate use of a firearm in a public place firing seven times when twice would have sufficed.....

But it is galling though, serviceman shoots terrorist or criminal and is on trial for murder, coppers make mistake and shoot an innocent, no trial.
 

Bisley

War Hero
What still worries me is that he was shot 7 times in the head while being held down, but 9 shots were fired and 2 missed.

But as you have all said if poor percy out in Iraq shoots someone he is hung out to dry and the Army hands them over with no thought at all.
 

WarMonger

War Hero
Ah but you should know Bisley as a shotist.....apparently the two shots were declared due to change of position/snatching the trigger so they dont count to the overall score!!!
 

Bisley

War Hero
WarMonger said:
Ah but you should know Bisley as a shotist.....apparently the two shots were declared due to change of position/snatching the trigger so they dont count to the overall score!!!
Damn snatching the trigger forgot all about that. :lol:
 

WarMonger

War Hero
Bisley said:
But as you have all said if poor percy out in Iraq shoots someone he is hung out to dry and the Army hands them over with no thought at all.
There seems to be a never ending catalogue of cock ups by the Army including this sort of issue, sending people into harms way without the proper intel with inadequate equipment etc etc...I wonder how much is down to the Army top brass and how much down to pressure from pencil wielding desk numpties at the MOD...I think the Ministry of Defence and a certain degree of policitcal interference is involved.....TONY!!!!

It begs the question if the grey funnel line will be as supportive when jack hands out a case of metal poisoning to some bearded nutcase on the gangway....its gonna happen sooner or later...!!!
 
FlagWagger said:
higthepig said:
It crosses my mind that there is something wrong in the asylum, a gang of Police armed and dangerous,shoot an innocent man SEVEN times,and face no charges,not even the officer in charge is held accountable. Yet our poor little squaddie ,in a war zone, shoots the enemy and is on a charge for murder,please confirm im not going mad.
My thoughts too... on the plus side, the recent arrest of Lord Levy demonstrated that we've a little way to go to a full police state.
I some how fear the lack of action is more to protect the senior officers who put the front line coppers in an invideous position, namely having to shoot a man who was actually innocent. I personally think it would have been in the public interest for the OIC of the operation to be tried for manslaughter, as I believe the failings that caused the death of an innocent man took place in the control room.

Perhaps you could enlighten us on the squaddies who have been charged with murder for killing the enemy.

I always thought a police state was one where the government used the police to harras and suppress the opposition, whereas the arrest of Lord Levy was the result of part of the opposition harrrassing the government. Also in a police state arrests tend to be the result of a dawn raid rather than an appointment system.

Peter
 
For our Army brethren it's the fog of war, usually laced with crap intelligence. For the Met it's the fog of indecision, laced with worse intelligence, not to mention the difficulty of communicating with your leaders when waiting to shoot a suspect on a tube train.

There is only one answer, that this administration has been at pains to obstruct, and that is a full, frank and open public enquiry. Mr de Menezes' family deserves this mark of respect in their loss.
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
The Army were involved in this, the bloke that was having a wiz whilst watching the apartments block was Army.

If you like conspiracy therories:-

1. Enquriy delays have been caused whilst the Hereford blokes go through Police Training at Hendon.

2. Menezes was an electrician, a very handy trade for a bomb maker, no further bombs since his death????????

Without going on at length about the rights and wrongs of the incident, its fair to say that Menezes' family have had far more attention than they would have done in Brazil, a country that is truly a Police State. Then theres the compensation.
Menezes's was in the country illegally and had been for some time, I wonder how much contact he had had with his family in the time He was in the UK, especially some of the 3rd cousins 8 times removed that have been popping up regularly on the TV
 

andym

War Hero
why is it that everyone forgets one thing?HE WAS HERE ILLEGALLY!!!!Maybe the family should be sued for fraud????
 

Leviathan

Midshipman
Ok.. maybe the guy shouldn't have been shot (and 7 times with Dum Dums ffs!!), but it has to be remembered that we were at a heightened state of alert. This guy was an illegal immigrant, he was an unknown, and was obviously suspicious enough to have tabs on him.
 
Maxi_77 said:
FlagWagger said:
higthepig said:
It crosses my mind that there is something wrong in the asylum, a gang of Police armed and dangerous,shoot an innocent man SEVEN times,and face no charges,not even the officer in charge is held accountable. Yet our poor little squaddie ,in a war zone, shoots the enemy and is on a charge for murder,please confirm im not going mad.
My thoughts too... on the plus side, the recent arrest of Lord Levy demonstrated that we've a little way to go to a full police state.
I some how fear the lack of action is more to protect the senior officers who put the front line coppers in an invideous position, namely having to shoot a man who was actually innocent. I personally think it would have been in the public interest for the OIC of the operation to be tried for manslaughter, as I believe the failings that caused the death of an innocent man took place in the control room.

Perhaps you could enlighten us on the squaddies who have been charged with murder for killing the enemy.

I always thought a police state was one where the government used the police to harras and suppress the opposition, whereas the arrest of Lord Levy was the result of part of the opposition harrrassing the government. Also in a police state arrests tend to be the result of a dawn raid rather than an appointment system.

Peter
I had a whizz bike for years!! Yes we live in a police state the police escorts pissed me off at times. While old ma Jenkins was getting mugged

Yet now I phone plod when the car is getting trashed and my call is in a Q an it is important to us!!! You can contact us by email if you wish. Bollocks!!
 

PartTimePongo

War Hero
Except he wasn't an Illegal. Jack Straw confirmed that to the Brasilian ambassador, the press release is in the FCO website as I remember.
 

radar.uk

Midshipman
I have not undergone the training but from what I understand the method of dealing with a suicide bomber is shots to the head as it stops all muscle movement immediately. If I am wrong then I do apologise. Damned if they did and damned if they didn't, I guess none of us have ever been in that position whilst serving!!!!!!
 

ThePunisher

Lantern Swinger
There was never any danger of charges being brought aginst the firearms officers. The last time it looked like this might happen - the Harry Stanly case - SO19 threw their warrent cards out of the pram and refused to carry firearms. The Met's top brass promptly sh1t themselves and the two suspended officers were reinstated on light duties.
Anyone who beleives the IPCC/CPS are totally independent probably thinks we'll find WMD's in Iraq.
There is no way Satan - sorry, Blair - would allow firearms officers to be charged. He's got enough on his plate without armed police going on strike. There would be noone to take their place. Squaddies and Bootnecks do things rather differently to PC Dixon...

Sgt: "Your Honour, my lance-jack put down suppresive fire with the GPMG. I closed with the enemy - sorry, suspect - gave him 20 rounds with the SA80a2, and posted a grenade. Then I finished the [email protected] by cutting his throat with my Fairburn-Sykes."

Judge: "Sgt, the suspect was twelve years old! And he was armed with a water-pistol!"

Sgt: "Sorry, Your Honour, but he looked like a Brazilian! And we found a table-leg lying next to him!"

judge: "That's different. No case to answer. You're free to go."
 
Punisher

As Plod for 20 odd years I never took up any offer to take a fire arms course for the following reason.

1. You do not have to
2. When entering premises where suspected armed person may be the armed officers go in first. The unarmed officer do not have to go in until the premises are safe.
3. Providing the suspect/s is handcuffed made to sit and at least one officer watches the suspect all the time and is not distracted by other officers finding things we will all be safe.
4. It will not be me standing in the box of the Old Bailey Charged with Murder as did two officers who shot Stephen Waldorf in 1983.
5. I will not automatically be suspended and sent off for counseling if I do my job. Let us get this clear, every Police Officer is a "Constable" regardless of rank and if Commissioner or any person senior to myself ordered me to arrest someone and I thought he should not be arrested, lack of evidence perhaps, then I can lawfully say. "Do it yourself,you have the same power of arrest as me"
6. I will still receive the same rate of pay, give or take some recent allowances/bonus's, fire arms authorised or not.

My only surprise is that they actually find officer to take this duty on and no they would not go on strike nor did they threaten that. All they have to do is voluntary return their fire arms authorizations and London would be bereft of armed Police.

As an Officer involved in full time drug offences investigation who has forced entry to many properties I know and you should realize that often a decision has to be made in a split second with no recourse for a second opinion or to authorisation from a senior officer. Why would you do it if you felt no protection will be given by your management.

Better still put the Management in the front line holding his weapon looking down the barrel of a gun and watch his/her reaction.

Nutty
 
Nutty said:
Punisher

As Plod for 20 odd years I never took up any offer to take a fire arms course for the following reason.

1. You do not have to
2. When entering premises where suspected armed person may be the armed officers go in first. The unarmed officer do not have to go in until the premises are safe.
3. Providing the suspect/s is handcuffed made to sit and at least one officer watches the suspect all the time and is not distracted by other officers finding things we will all be safe.
4. It will not be me standing in the box of the Old Bailey Charged with Murder as did two officers who shot Stephen Waldorf in 1983.
5. I will not automatically be suspended and sent off for counseling if I do my job. Let us get this clear, every Police Officer is a "Constable" regardless of rank and if Commissioner or any person senior to myself ordered me to arrest someone and I thought he should not be arrested, lack of evidence perhaps, then I can lawfully say. "Do it yourself,you have the same power of arrest as me"
6. I will still receive the same rate of pay, give or take some recent allowances/bonus's, fire arms authorised or not.

My only surprise is that they actually find officer to take this duty on and no they would not go on strike nor did they threaten that. All they have to do is voluntary return their fire arms authorizations and London would be bereft of armed Police.

As an Officer involved in full time drug offences investigation who has forced entry to many properties I know and you should realize that often a decision has to be made in a split second with no recourse for a second opinion or to authorisation from a senior officer. Why would you do it if you felt no protection will be given by your management.

Better still put the Management in the front line holding his weapon looking down the barrel of a gun and watch his/her reaction.

Nutty
Well said.

Peter
 
Just another thought, I wonder how many who suggest we are living in a police state have ever been in a real police state nad spoken the those who actually live there?

Peter
 
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