Poland signs missile deal with U.S.

#1
Had to come didn't it after the crap in Georgia, they all feel vunerable now and Russia has shown them that they need to be scared.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15poland.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

If Russia had no designs on any of these countries then it wouldn't object, so I think their objections show a lot of what they have planned.

The Ukranians are also saying the Russian Black Sea fleet will need special permission before it can enter it's ports.
 
#5
My father maintains that the Poles are idiots. They have a history of provocation and we will see where this leads us. As Churchill said - “There are few virtues that the Poles do not possess and there are few errors they have ever avoided.â€

RM
 

P2000

Lantern Swinger
#6
Three things:

1) If I was Poland, or another ex-Soviet state I'd be looking over my shoulder a bit nervously;

2) The US ABM system will (may) be capable of downing a handful of ballistic missiles. Russia has several thousand still in service. MAD remains in force.

3) Russia (and to an extent Germany and its predecessor states) has spent the last 300 years tearing Poland apart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_poland

In the last century the Russians invaded in 1920, 1939 (in alliance with those lovely Nazis) and then in 1945 they rigged elections to ensure Poland came into the communist camp. We last fought the French (properly) in 1815 and we STILL don't like them
 
#7
P2000 said:
The US ABM system will (may) be capable of downing a handful of ballistic missiles. Russia has several thousand still in service. MAD remains in force.
That may well be the case but it does change the effective throw weight balance. Arguably, signed agreements should be abided by unless formally renegotiated. That said, that doesn't seem to be Ivan's precise objection.

Invasion of Poland would not be the same as previous incursions by foreign forces. As a NATO member, it would likely trigger WW3; which, of course, we are totally prepared for. :sad5:
 

P2000

Lantern Swinger
#8
Both reasonable points- it will alter the effective throw weight. By how much I'm not sure, but I'd argue not enough to alter the strategic balance.

Equally, arguably, signed agreements should be abided by. I could make the argument that SALT, START etc. represent a pragmatic recognition to the straegic state of affairs in the 70s and 80s: i.e. that the Cold War was getting dangerously hot, and that neither side could continue to affort new / more weapons without something going badly wrong. As such the establishment of a US ABM system is a pragmatic recogniton of changed strategic circumstances in the 2000s, in a similar vein.

But it's Friday afternoon, and I can't bring myself to do the research to back up that argument in full.

If I was feeling facetious I might even suggest that as we aren't ready for WW3 now would be a good time to face down the Russians.
 
#9
According to the U.S. these missile sights are to protect against Iran..which makes their usual very poor sense of geography even worse!
Is it the Russians or the U.S. that is having difficulty remembering that the Cold War is over.
IMHO these attempts to inflame old systems are the U.S. hierachy (not the puppet on the end of it) once again looking after their wallets, nothing more, nothing less.
 
#10
Last year there was some American scientist saying that that would be nice to reduce the present human population to one million men. I guess he's involved in this project as well.
 
#11
Bergen said:
They have a history of provocation and we will see where this leads us.
RM
Actually what they forget to tell us at school it that Poland was no particularly peaceful neighbour. They wouldn't tell you that Poland was taking active part in partition of Chehoslovakia in company with Nazi Germany and got a big chank of that country.
As soon as Poland became independent from the Russian Empire in the 20th it started the war against independent Lithuania in order to incorporate it - which was a failure.
After getting independence from Russia the Poles, as a God loving, tolerant nation started destroying Russian Orthodox churches and managed to destroy more than 140 churches up to 1930 th. This is the numbers from General Denikin's book "The Life of an Officer" (He was a White Russian commander during the Russian civil war and had a Russian father and Polish mother).

It is a great national tradition coming back to the Middle Ages in Poland to blame Russians for everything.

It is not for nothing that the major anti-Russian ideologist in the USA is of Polish extraction.
 
#15
NotmeChief, I can see that the meaning what that Russian general had said was distorted on purpose. He meant that any potential rocket launch site close to Russia is a legitimate target in case of war. It's just a Russian defence condition.

All our major centres are targeted by the Russians anyway. As well as all American big sites and big cities. And vice versa.
 
#19
Guzzler said:
P2000 said:
1) If I was Poland, or another ex-Soviet state I'd be looking over my shoulder a bit nervously;
Poland isn't an ex-Soviet state.[/quote]

Semantics. Poland hasn't been a country since the 17th Century. Polish independence ended in 1697 when the kings of Saxony annexed Poland. In the late 18th century Poland was divided between Prussia, Russia, and Austria and ceased to exist. Later most of Poland came under Russian domination and from 1863 Poland was just a Russian province. After World War I Poland was re-established by the Allies whilst Russia was busy with internal problems. This lasted until 1939 when Ribbentrop and Molotov divided up Poland again. Poland was controlled by a Soviet-dominated government from 1947 to the fall of the USSR. I'll repeat Churchill's view of the Poles again - “There are few virtues that the Poles do not possess and there are few errors they have ever avoided.â€

Luckily most of the working population of Poland has re-located to UK :thumright:

RM
 
#20
Bergen said:
Guzzler said:
P2000 said:
1) If I was Poland, or another ex-Soviet state I'd be looking over my shoulder a bit nervously;
Poland isn't an ex-Soviet state.[/quote]

Semantics. Poland hasn't been a country since the 17th Century. Polish independence ended in 1697 when the kings of Saxony annexed Poland. In the late 18th century Poland was divided between Prussia, Russia, and Austria and ceased to exist. Later most of Poland came under Russian domination and from 1863 Poland was just a Russian province. After World War I Poland was re-established by the Allies whilst Russia was busy with internal problems. This lasted until 1939 when Ribbentrop and Molotov divided up Poland again. Poland was controlled by a Soviet-dominated government from 1947 to the fall of the USSR. I'll repeat Churchill's view of the Poles again - “There are few virtues that the Poles do not possess and there are few errors they have ever avoided.â€

Luckily most of the working population of Poland has re-located to UK :thumright:

RM
And Ireland! Along with the population of Lithuania and Botswanaland. If you want directions in Dublin ask a Lithuanian security guard. A circley circley means roundabout.

Point of interest. It was told that the Grand Canal in Dublin had plans to create a tourist attraction. Gondolas similar to Venice. A councillor shouted out. That's fine but who will feed them.

Feck all to do with missiles in Poland!!
 

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