Poke your Treaty Up your arse Brown

#1
The Irish have voted against the ratification of the EU Treaty.

God do I love the Irish - now Brown CAN'T force it on us


Stuff the Lisbon treaty and your "NO REFERENDUM REQUIRED" right up your arse Brown in fact - stuff this government
 

hnhnwilliam

Lantern Swinger
#3
NotmeChief said:
The Irish have voted against the ratification of the EU Treaty.

God do I love the Irish - now Brown CAN'T force it on us


Stuff the Lisbon treaty and stuff this government

Brilliant news, I am going to get pissed tonight (first time since leaving the mob 22 years ago)
 
#4
Some informed discussion of the issue here

Although fwiw governance of the EU badly needs improvement, it's become even more clumsy and unwieldy than before and because it can't make any decisions about significant issues it's getting more and more involved in trivia and intrusion.

It'll be interesting to see how they try to achieve it.
 
#5
Labour are once again saved from having to deal with consequences of not giving us a say by another country's referendum. But will the Irish keep putting the referendum to the people until they get the answer they want? Or will Europe re-word the Constitution AGAIN until we all accept it?

When will they wake up to the fact that seemingly the majority of people of Europe just want a small EU Government?
 

pastrdp

Lantern Swinger
#6
I am also extremely grateful that the Irish MAY have saved us from the immediate imposition of this treaty, but I do not believe for one minute that the Political Elite will see this as a permanent bar to introducing this consititution by one means or another, I mean surely - just because we pay tax we don't honestly believe we are capable of deciding our own destiny, we're clearly not upto the intellectual challenge.
 

pastrdp

Lantern Swinger
#7
The beautiful irony of our political leaders refusal to embrace any form of democracy on the issue is that the 300 million+ disenfranchised voters across Europe have just had their future decided by a majority of 110k, Gordon I really hope that you and Tony feel particularly proud of yourselves tonight! Could I suggest that for your next project you undertake a review of the rules surrounding the Eurovision Song Contest, to ensure fairness maybe we could limit voting rights to a small colony of Hermits populating the Isle of Mull
 

oberon

Lantern Swinger
#9
johne said:
Ihave grave doubts that this will be the end. They will just push all of it through the back door. Mark my words.
By EU law they can't! The Lisbon treaty HAS to be undergo ratification by each and every State in the EU for it to come into being. Its dead in the water unless the Irish hold another referendum on it next year - they have to hold referendums if it affects their (written) constitution.
 
#11
One of the things that swung this was the f*****g arrogance of the yes mob.They talked down to people as if the real people were gobshites.For me the shit of not having a rep all the time at the table was too much,the cnuts in government take liberties when they are being watched ,can you imagine it if you took your eye off the ball? The British peopl have to have a say,no ifs or f*****g buts.

this maybe helped too :thumright: :thumright:


 
#12
bikerman said:
Berty said "the referendum was at the heart of democracy" will someone please tell Broon. BZ to the Paddy's, three cheers.

:wav:
There is a widespread delusion amongst the British public that we actually have a democracy and an equally widespread hope amongst British politicians that we should never get one. :thumright:

Give Golden Broone and his bunch of bastards a couple of years to re-write the rules and re-frame the question. I never thought that I would say it - But thank fcuk for the Irish.

RM

Rudyard Kipling had politicians nailed:-


I could not dig; I dare not rob;
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young.
 
#13
johne said:
I still think they will bend and twist the rules untill it suits them.
No can do.

As Oberon has pointed out, they have no power to force through a treaty without consent. This is not the sort of thing they could issue via a Directive. The preliminary Consultative Document (the initial stage prior to issuing a Directive) must have a basis in existing Community Law before it can be submitted for approval/negotiation or it would be automatically ultra vires.

I'm not really surprised that the Irish voted no. The new treaty denies smaller nations like Ireland and Denmark their current, disproportional, influence whilst conferring more power to the large populous nations that contribute the most to the EUs coffers: Germany & Britain. I was in Dublin a couple of days ago and it was clear that there was more opposition across the political spectrum that the Taoiseach would like to have admitted.
 
#15
thingy said:
The new treaty denies smaller nations like Ireland and Denmark their current, disproportional, influence whilst conferring more power to the large populous nations that contribute the most to the EUs coffers: Germany & Britain.
Indeed. I find it amusing that there is such vociferous opposition to an extension of the UKs influence in Europe.

:D

ce la vie :D
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#16
As an Irishman I feel I should comment. It seems that in Ireland the politicians on the "Yes" side are trying to spin the reason for the "No" vote was that people were confused over issues such as abortion, taxation & todays buzzword of conscription, a phrase which has been wheeled out by people from all the main parties.

Additionally here's a list of the top reasons from the last Irish Times poll:

“Can you tell me why you have decided to vote no on the Lisbon Treaty?â€

30% - I don’t know what I’m voting for/don’t understand it
24% - To keep Ireland’s power and identity
22% - To safeguard Ireland’s neutrality
17% - Don’t like being told what to do/forced into voting "Yes"
12% - Bigger countries will have too much power


Nor did the "No" campaign benefit from a small turnout. 50% or the population voted in the referendum, and the polls show that the "Yes" voters were more likely to turn out than the "No" voters (The Irish Times poll found 85% of the "Yes" voters were likely to vote, versus only 81% of the "No" voters).

Despite this, the five reasons above for the "No" vote have nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty, sadly. One again, in Ireland (as in the UK too, it seems) ignorance of political issues seizes the day. As pleased as I am with the democratic outcome of the referendum vote, it's times like this that I wonder should all people be allowed to vote at all... :oops:

On a seperate but connected point, a rather interesting comment:

FT.com said:
Some European politicians suggested the latest crisis could tempt some member states, frustrated with the lack of progress towards European political unity, to press ahead with closer integration on their own.

“There will arise a debate about a Europe of two speeds, a debate about those states that want deeper European integration and those that don’t,†predicted Martin Schulz, the German leader of the European Parliament’s socialist group.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/482c0102-3...0779fd2ac.html

...which to me basically says "Right; feck the Irish, they don't count!" Which makes me even more pleased that the "No" vote won. :twisted:
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
#17
Passed-over_Loggie said:
The Eurotraitors did argue that the Irish didn't understand what they were voting for. Arrogant bastards.
I was listening in on the World Service earlier and heard, in answer to a question about referenda, some Frog political commentator answer state that the electorate didn't understand the "true meaning of the Constitution" and were not allowing the EU to "progress as we'd like" - call me a conspiracy theorist if you like, but it seems to me that there is a definite political elite in favour of greater integration at any cost, with a silent apathetic majority willing to let thme get their way.
 

Tanzi

Lantern Swinger
#18
“Can you tell me why you have decided to vote no on the Lisbon Treaty?â€

30% - I don’t know what I’m voting for/don’t understand it
24% - To keep Ireland’s power and identity
22% - To safeguard Ireland’s neutrality
17% - Don’t like being told what to do/forced into voting "Yes"
12% - Bigger countries will have too much power

And the other 89% said "We've bin at war with Lisburn for a hondred years - why should we stop now ?"
 
#19
sgtpepperband said:
Additionally here's a list of the top reasons from the last Irish Times poll:

“Can you tell me why you have decided to vote no on the Lisbon Treaty?â€

30% - I don’t know what I’m voting for/don’t understand it
This is quite telling, people were prepared to respond to a question they didn't understand. Obviously statistics are risky, but it's probably safe to assume that a similar percentage of the yes voters also didn't understand the question.

I guess the message from that is that the communication wasn't all that effective. The treaty is a weighty, and very legalistic, tome which doesn't make easy reading. I haven't read it, but I have seen some pretty thorough analysis of it. I think a lot of the communication challenges were around the fact that the main issues in there are administrative improvement. It's almost like asking the public to vote on the manuals governing how the Commons, and indeed the civil service, operate.

24% - To keep Ireland’s power and identity
12% - Bigger countries will have too much power
These are probably the most significant points, Ireland would have lost a fairly significant level of authority in Europe, and as a net consumer of funds from the EU it then risks losing access to the cash.

In that sense this is probably the right result for Ireland, the expansion of the EU is bad for the net consumers of funds, as the available pot starts to get diluted.

17% - Don’t like being told what to do/forced into voting "Yes"
This is a lot of people who don't like the idea of representative democracy ;)

On a seperate but connected point, a rather interesting comment:

FT.com said:
Some European politicians suggested the latest crisis could tempt some member states, frustrated with the lack of progress towards European political unity, to press ahead with closer integration on their own.

“There will arise a debate about a Europe of two speeds, a debate about those states that want deeper European integration and those that don’t,†predicted Martin Schulz, the German leader of the European Parliament’s socialist group.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/482c0102-3...0779fd2ac.html

...which to me basically says "Right; feck the Irish, they don't count!" Which makes me even more pleased that the "No" vote won. :twisted:
The two speed debate has gone on for years.

The treaty has a lot of faults, but the significant issues around improving the business process do need dealt with. I think the problem is that it wasn't addressed until after expansion, so all the small players who have a disproportionate voice don't want to lose it.

Where I do have significant concerns is that it doesn't address what the Commission and Parliament should be involved in. Personally I think they should focus on cross border transaction, rather than micromanaging within the member states.
 

McCloggie

Lantern Swinger
#20
Thank fcuk for the Irish.

Looks like its back to the drawing board for the Eurocrats and maybe they will come up with something that is democratic, workable and returns some pwer to the nation staes. I doubt it however. As has been said, there is too much at stake for the Browns, Mandlesons, Kinnocks and all their unelected fellow travelrs earning a vast salary at the tax payers cost to let go and produce something that the majority of people in Europe actually want.

It is is not just the Irish - both the French and Dutch said NO last time and the present government is basically too afraid to give the UK a vote because they know which way it would go!

McC
 
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