Pinochet - hero or villain?

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
#41
Bergen wrote
Despite his name Bernard O'Higgins wasn't Irish
Indeed. O'Higgins was from a very cosmopolitan family. You'd have to go back to his grandparents to find real Irish (that's closer than many Irish Americans). Reference Cochrane; read 'The Sea Wolf' for Cochrane's story. What a guy. I believe the Chilean Navy have a warship (ex RN?) named after him and one after O'Higgins.

Pinochet was of French decent through his father's line.


Slim, I thought O'H's old man was Irish/Spanish?
 
#44
Seadog said:
Bergen wrote
Despite his name Bernard O'Higgins wasn't Irish
Indeed. O'Higgins was from a very cosmopolitan family. You'd have to go back to his grandparents to find real Irish (that's closer than many Irish Americans). Reference Cochrane; read 'The Sea Wolf' for Cochrane's story. What a guy. I believe the Chilean Navy have a warship (ex RN?) named after him and one after O'Higgins.

Pinochet was of French decent through his father's line.


Slim, I thought O'H's old man was Irish/Spanish?
His dad Ambrose was Irish.

Cochrane what a guy??? Described by Nelson as his best and most aggressive captain...............Bergen can personally and cheerfully ignore most of his incredible life and focus on one small fact. What other matelot successfully engaged a Squadron of Napoleonic Cavalry from a frigate???

RM
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
#46
Reference O'Higgins, Bergen wrote

His dad Ambrose was Irish.
So he was. Changed his first name (as you would) it seems when he went to work for the Spanish. Seadog stands corrected.

Cochrane was a star. 'Master and Commander' is unashamedly a Cochrane episode. Patrick O'Brian said so.

We're wandering off topic here and I'm as guiltyas the next (or last) poster.

I didn't personally benefit from Pinochet and Chile's pro British stance in 1982 (I was well north of Gib!) but I can understand anyone who went south being grateful and not being too fussed about Pinochet's approach to running Chile.
 
#47
Back to the thread-- :lol:

It seems to me that the Chileans now have a well run civilised country . Safe to walk on the streets etc etc. Also there have been an awful lot of photograph's of Chileans weeping at the news of Pinochet's death.

Its the usual story --with the initial 'hard man' who puts the country on a level footing after his retiral the left/pc brigade start to throw bricks.
Its a bit like Maggie and the UK . The Iron Lady her policies during the time she was in power set the UK on a firm track and we are still using them. The Present lot haven't changed much and just let things go on.
 
#48
Greenie said:
Back to the thread-- :lol:

It seems to me that the Chileans now have a well run civilised country . Safe to walk on the streets etc etc.
It's not that safe Greenie.............in Punta Arenas there was a constant danger of being pulled off darkened side-streets by nubile young women. They had a knack of administering some sort of truth drug disguised in pints of beer. Years of training could not protect you and it was not unusual to wake up in the morning with your clothes in a crumpled heap at the side of the bed and to find that you had a date with the woman who's arm was across your chest and her sister later that night.

War is hell.
 
#49
Bergen said:
Greenie said:
Back to the thread-- :lol:

It seems to me that the Chileans now have a well run civilised country . Safe to walk on the streets etc etc.
It's not that safe Greenie.............in Punta Arenas there was a constant danger of being pulled off darkened side-streets by nubile young women. They had a knack of administering some sort of truth drug disguised in pints of beer. Years of training could not protect you and it was not unusual to wake up in the morning with your clothes in a crumpled heap at the side of the bed and to find that you had a date with the woman who's arm was across your chest and her sister later that night.

War is hell.

I see no ships only hardships :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
#50
Pinochet wasn't the nicest of people but he got the job done, he saved the country from communism and left the country in a fairly decent state. Theres also the small matter of the Falklands and frankly for that I think we should look the other way on his misdemeanors. Id have no problems shaking hands with him although it puts me off he swindled all that money.

And I just laugh at the people on here who are trying to put him in the same boat as saddam hussein, absoloutely ridiculous, get an education.

i do find it funny that with all the fuss about pinochet losing 3000 people all those years ago that mugabe is doing it now but still we do sod all.

if only zimbabwe had oil
we didnt do anything to pinochet because he was acting in our interests. before you start with the same old hate the US RAH America, Bush loves his oil RAH c*** bear in mind that with zimbabwe the majority of its neighbours couldnt care less, its a bit hard to intervene when you have the large part of a continent that doesnt particularly disagree with what Mugabe is doing and doesn't want change....Iraq had plenty of critics.
 
#51
iceman said:
Pinochet wasn't the nicest of people but he got the job done, he saved the country from communism and left the country in a fairly decent state. Theres also the small matter of the Falklands and frankly for that I think we should look the other way on his misdemeanors. Id have no problems shaking hands with him although it puts me off he swindled all that money.

And I just laugh at the people on here who are trying to put him in the same boat as saddam hussein, absoloutely ridiculous, get an education.

i do find it funny that with all the fuss about pinochet losing 3000 people all those years ago that mugabe is doing it now but still we do sod all.

if only zimbabwe had oil


we didnt do anything to pinochet because he was acting in our interests. before you start with the same old hate the US RAH America, Bush loves his oil RAH c*** bear in mind that with zimbabwe the majority of its neighbours couldnt care less, its a bit hard to intervene when you have the large part of a continent that doesnt particularly disagree with what Mugabe is doing and doesn't want change....Iraq had plenty of critics.
What an extremely well reasoned and presented post. You should be congratulated for your grasp of the subject and for your analysis of both African and South American politics.

Bravo

RM
 
#52
I remember Pinochet's coup led to Wilson stopping a run ashore in Valparaiso........
Captain Cochrane also invented PSYOPS leaflet drops (from kites)
 
#53
F169 said:
I remember Pinochet's coup led to Wilson stopping a run ashore in Valparaiso........
Captain Cochrane also invented PSYOPS leaflet drops (from kites)
Dear old Harold, one of our more descisive PMs.

Peter
 
#54
Maxi_77 said:
F169 said:
I remember Pinochet's coup led to Wilson stopping a run ashore in Valparaiso........
Captain Cochrane also invented PSYOPS leaflet drops (from kites)
Dear old Harold, one of our more descisive PMs.

Peter
At the risk of going completely off-subject I am amazed at the amount of references to Robert Mugabe on a thread about Pinochet. It seems that we have forgotten that Mugabe is a creation of the United Kingdom. We supported him and his terrorists, turned a blind-eye to his atrocities and massacres, financed him, encouraged him and in the end sent a BATT team to Rhodesia to train the thugs that he calls an army.

All initiated by Harold Wilson who as you rightly point out Peter [albeit with tongue firmly in cheek] was one of our more decisive leaders. Chubby, smarmy, pipe-smoking, Gannex wearing bar-steward that he was.

RM
 
#55
A good article in todays Toryagraph. Which throws some more light on the subject.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/12/13/do1305.xml

It rather puts Pinochet 3000 deaths into perspective to the 15000 Castro had shot as soon as he took power. It also lists how life in Chile had improved in his rule.

"Moreover, other statistics of Pinochet's record are worth mentioning. Inflation down from 600 per cent to six per cent. Infant mortality rates down from 66 per thousand to 13 per thousand. Urban access to drinking water up from 67 per cent to 98 per cent. Life expectations up from 64 to 73. Living standards more than doubled"

Perhaps we are moving out of the area of Vicious Dictator to rather Benign Dictator. Certainly not is the same league as you Left Wing types.

Nutty
 
#56
Bergen said:
Maxi_77 said:
F169 said:
I remember Pinochet's coup led to Wilson stopping a run ashore in Valparaiso........
Captain Cochrane also invented PSYOPS leaflet drops (from kites)
Dear old Harold, one of our more descisive PMs.

Peter
At the risk of going completely off-subject I am amazed at the amount of references to Robert Mugabe on a thread about Pinochet. It seems that we have forgotten that Mugabe is a creation of the United Kingdom. We supported him and his terrorists, turned a blind-eye to his atrocities and massacres, financed him, encouraged him and in the end sent a BATT team to Rhodesia to train the thugs that he calls an army.

All initiated by Harold Wilson who as you rightly point out Peter [albeit with tongue firmly in cheek] was one of our more decisive leaders. Chubby, smarmy, pipe-smoking, Gannex wearing bar-steward that he was.

RM
I don't think references to Mugabe are off thread. If you look at my original posting I directly referred to atrocities in Africa and Mugabe was one of the people/areas I was thinking of. Having worked in South America from 86-88 I have a deep interest in the region. Funnily enough I couldn't get very worked up over the almost trial though I loved the dramatised version thet was subsequently shown on TV. Interestingly a Steve Bell cartoon I read as depicting Pinochet using Thatch (and by extension the UK I suppose) to give his regime respectability.

Steve Bell cartoon

Several sources indicate that British forces far from suffering from the duplicity of our garlic eating neighbours had the advantage of knowing the codes:

"With her four nuclear submarines in the south Atlantic, she's threatening to unleash an atomic weapon against Argentina if I don't provide her with the secret codes that will make the missiles we sold the Argentinians deaf and blind."

Guardian November 22nd 2005

though this didn't stop French missiles hitting the Sheffield.

Wickipedia - French Involvement

Times - book review

there are lots of other articles for those interested.
 
#57
Bergen said:
Maxi_77 said:
F169 said:
I remember Pinochet's coup led to Wilson stopping a run ashore in Valparaiso........
Captain Cochrane also invented PSYOPS leaflet drops (from kites)
Dear old Harold, one of our more descisive PMs.

Peter
At the risk of going completely off-subject I am amazed at the amount of references to Robert Mugabe on a thread about Pinochet. It seems that we have forgotten that Mugabe is a creation of the United Kingdom. We supported him and his terrorists, turned a blind-eye to his atrocities and massacres, financed him, encouraged him and in the end sent a BATT team to Rhodesia to train the thugs that he calls an army.

All initiated by Harold Wilson who as you rightly point out Peter [albeit with tongue firmly in cheek] was one of our more decisive leaders. Chubby, smarmy, pipe-smoking, Gannex wearing bar-steward that he was.

RM
Bringing thing back on line, musn't upset the Mods now must we.

Allende was no angel, and although much has been said about CIA support for Pinochet, there was as much support for Allende from the KGB who were very active in trying to establish Marxist governments in the area by any means. Allende's thugs were already killing off those who may stand in his way and the scene was being set for a Castro style government for the rest of Allende's natural life. Whatever else he was Allende only used democracy when it worked for him.

Our opinion is coloured by the fact that there is not surprisingly a substantial emigre community in the UK and they have presented a steady rosy picture of pre Pinochet Chile and perhaps before damming him to much we should look at what he was against.

When power in a country becomes the important thing rather than democracy it gets messy, after all the ones behind the insurgency in Iraq are responsible for many more deaths than Pinochet, as was SH.

As one of the worlds bad men Pinochet will find it difficult to get onto the scale when compared with the others.
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
#58
Mengistu (who he?) has just been found guilty in absentia, of genocide.

Mengistu Sentenced

During his 17-year rule, up to 1.5 million people were killed, tortured or detained by henchmen from his Derg, or "committee".
Why absentia?

......he fled to Zimbabwe in 1991 where he lives in luxurious exile in a suburb of Harare, the capital. Robert Mugabe has said he is a "refugee" and has refused to extradite him to Ethiopia.
Why don't we hear as much about him as we do Pinochet despite the much more expensive butcher's bill?

former Marxist dictator
my italics
 

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