Discussion in 'Royal Naval Reserve (RNR)' started by Midas, Mar 5, 2006.

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  1. I know that this may be a little contentious but when is MOD going to start allowing us to accrue pensionable service against the time served with the RNR?

    This happens in the US and as we are looking at:

    1. Recruitment problems
    2. Being called up a lot more (albeit you do get pensionable service here)

    Surely this will help both issues......

    I am not a legal bod but thought that employers had a legal obligation to offer basic pensions?
  2. I am afriad that this very unlikely. Don't like to refer to the 'other place' but...

    TA link

    It would appear the pension obligation doesn't stretch to the reserve forces.
  3. I thought the whole point of bounty was to make up for no pension.
  4. If we start asking for pension, they WILL take away Bounty.
    e.g. 28 days training each year - how little pension will that accrue ?
    Bounty - £1000+ tax free

    No brainer - do not even think about pension
  5. Agreed. £1000 now must be worth about five times that when I retire.
  6. Fair one - I naturally agree with the bountly side of the issue! That said the yanks look after their reserves a lot more than we do (free college education) to name but one!

    The recent high court ruling stipulated that we are known as "casual labour" - more like cheap labour. Thanks a lot for the link Fish-head, much appreciated.
  7. The bounty is an incentive to complete training, and a nice one at that. I don't think pension rights would.

    You're right though Mida, US regulars and reserves get a lot more reward for their service, with golden handshakes etc. We're just not in the same league - and if we were we'd rapidly become unsubstainable because of wage costs.

    One of the things that keeps reserves cheap and attractive to the tax payer is not having a pension. Once that is introduced then our economic benefit vs the regulars is much reduced.
  8. I was talking to someone about this before and he told me that he had spoke to someone senior about it and was told that we should be putting our bounties into a private pension plan and if we choose not to then that is our problem. Booooo :(
  9. I still serve in RNR and carry out duties with ratings from the USA. Apparently the US Reserves have to complete 20 years service to obtain a pension. If they carry out regular service then this also counts towards their 20 years.
  10. The last time this question was asked of the grown-ups the answer (as of Mid 2001) was that the Act of Parliament that gave part-time workers pension rights explicitly excluded the Reserve Forces. There was a newspaper article a while back about some TA's who were looking into a legal challenge to this exclusion. I've heard nothing since.
  11. See link from fish_head on 05 March (above)
  12. Ok Peops - legal eagle swooping to help here. The TA Major had taken the issue to the wrong court as I understand it. The matter being looked at is an employment one and would need to be taken through an employment tribunal as a claim for breach against the Equal Treatment Directive and Part Time Worker Regulations.

    The legal argument is this;
    1) The Treaty of Rome that the UK signed in 1970 to become part of the EEC (as was) contained an article 118. This article provided for equal treatment of citizens across the EEC by reason of gender and race.
    2) The articles of the Treaty of Rome had to be enacted in to UK law.
    3) The provisions of article 118 were enacted by the Sex Discrimination and Race Relations Acts. Both these acts having superior legisaltion in the Treaty of Rome have to be compatible with the ToR, both in spirit and in wording. This is the essential conflict between continental and British law, as the continental law founded on the Napoleonic Code and as such is interpretive, in other words, the interpretation of the law is paramount and is fairly strictly defined. However, in the UK we have a purposive tradition built up common law with loads of wiggle room that looks at what the intent or spirit of the law was.
    4) The Sex Discrimination Act was seen in the spirit that the ToR was thought to have meant. Originally, vast swathes of people were denied the protection of equal treatment under law purely because they worked part-time. However, as many cases have shown, the original interpretation of Parliament in 1976 was way off.
    5) The majority of people who work part-time in the UK are women.
    6) Therefore, any employment provision that excludes or treats part-timers less favourably than full time staff indirectly discriminates against the part-time staff.
    7) Denying RNR personnel access to a stakeholder pension or access to the RN pension is open to claim on the basis that it discriminates against part time workers, the vast majority of whom in the UK are women. Ipso facto, the exclusion is indirect gender discrimination.

    The claimant would only have to use the comparator of broad gender splits of part time and full time workers and not have to show the gender split in the reserve forces.

    As to whether the bounty is pension, this is a sop and would have very little actual credible defence in law. The essential point was that reservists had been treated differently from regulars. Therefore, the RN would also have to fund the loss of the value to the pension fund for each indidivual had the reservists been paying in to the pension scheme. This would have to be calculated for all reservists from 1976 onwards. This is the real cost to the MoD - not allowing reservists to access pensions now, but in calculating and then paying back the lossed value to the pension. However, getting access relies on one person to take this on and be prepared to take it all the way to Strasbourg.
  13. Being a fairly recent addition to the Old Age Pension list I can't see what the argument is.

    To recieve any pension you must have made contributions to whoever holds the pension funds.

    To qualify for OAP [--top amount ]you must have paid in 44 years of National Insurance Stamps.Also this amount was backed up by a form of Earnings Related contribution.

    To recieve a Forces Pension your time served earnings are graded to reflect the pension you may recieve.

    Pensionable service is normally after 22 years
    Any time served up to 22 years is paid in fractions ie do 9 you get 9/22 of the pension payable to that rank/rate when you are 65.

    So to qualify doing part time you would have to do a lot of reserve attendance and start counting the days into years!!

    I suggest that you as reservists collect the annual bounty and put it into a pension fund --you may make enough to buy a few pints now and again.
    Or just spend it!! The rate of inflation is almost the same as the banks interest at the moment!!
  14. Greenie - it may be that you missed the point. 'We' reservists were denied access to a pension scheme that lawfully we should have had access to. Being denied that, many of us choose to spend their bounty rather than invest. The point is, we weren't given that choice and should've been.

    Pusser has to come in to the late 20th century had actually start applying decent employment practices - and Im speaking as Chartered Fellow of the CIPD. Some of things Ive seen done, because "We're the Navy and we can" have made me cringe!!
  15. We also want our £3.25 for a sandwich back. It's being removed on the grounds that JPA left it out and there's no way to put it back in.
  16. Stand by to make a personal contribution to home to duties as well!!!

    Now where did I hear that no one would lose out!!!!!
  17. If that happens they really can shove it.
  18. Have heard it quoted that we will have to pay for the first mile, also Training allowance may stay as it was called something else by the TA and RAuxaF, hence caused confusion in the system. Have seen nothing in writing however.
  19. Any ideas about how would one decide how much the first mile of a train journey costs? Anyway, given the recruitment footprint of an RNRU, this wouldn't save any noticable amount, surely? Lots of people come from right at the edge of the travel expense limit, which I think is currently 40 or 50 miles.
  20. Bounty - £1000+ tax free how times have changed!

    Many moons ago when I served in the RMR I cannot remember the exact figure for bounty [I have had half my brain removed since, must have been the memory bit] I do know the local TA unit in town recieved three times as much as the RMR at the time.

    Even with parachute bounty it was still a poor offering compered to the TA

    Mate of mine was serving in the Artillery TA at the time, saying I was stupid we get more money blah! blah! blah!.

    In the RMR we shed blood to get that green hat and those para wings and wore that hat with pride. Couple of extra bob would have been ok though.

    The govt is saving zillions by not paying out where they should pay out. Country is practically run by volunteers. Only problem with volunteer work is the money is crap!! Mind the ones running the courses seem to do ok out of it.


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