Navy Net - Royal Navy Community

Register a free account today to join our community
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site, connect with other members through your own private inbox and will receive smaller adverts!

pc and bullying

Lingyai said:
I cannot believe that people allow bullying to happen to them as adults, this is a weird subject. Vexing indeed.

In the civilian workplace supervisors etc have many powers which they can use to try to intimidate their employees. Cutting pay rises is a very common one as is trumped up warnings and so on. I have had a jumped up crab 2.5 try it on with me and whilst I managed to bounce it back it still was an unpleasant 6 months or so, even though I had a good ally on the board, and I am sure he had a lot to do with the whole thing being dropped. Even so it does take it's toll, and you do need good friends inside the organisation to deal with it, and often the bullies pick on the outsider and that is where the real harm gets done. In my case I was targetted because I was a threat and not afraid to speak my mind.

Peter
 
Maxi wrote " In the civilian workplace....."

Supervisors only have what 'powers' are allowed under company rules - and that depends on how trustworthy / supportive a company is.
In this day and age, the Human Rights Act and the CRE has given 'powers' to every TD & H to accuse any line manager of every abuse from being born in the wrong part of the world to breathing the wrong way.
Both these organisations, in my view, allow unconfirmed, unsupported accusations to control the life of everyone (I have had this frightening experience).
But these companies can themselves also be responsible for bullying and intimidating tactics, and these can vary in intensity and subtlety, particularly so when TUPE is involved, some companies (and again I have had this experience) will do anything in their power to remove an ex-member of a previously contracted company by any means they can - and it sometimes works in that people will leave 'of their own accord' instead of fighting a losing battle in trying to keep their job, and to prove these companies are resorting to such tactics themselves.
You wrote that you were targetted as a 'threat' - a very similar circumstance to mine - but that could be because of RN training coming to the fore perhaps?
In answer to Lingyai - when you have a family & responsibilities (debts?) then you try to laugh these things off, but the time comes when you have to stand up the little cowpats !!
Trust I have not bored anyone - if so......... you know the answer :wink:
 
Lingyai said:
I cannot believe that people allow bullying to happen to them as adults, this is a weird subject. Vexing indeed.

That's not how it happens L. Bullying can be a series of incidents that mount up over a period of time. If you're in a military situation, and the bullyer is of a higher rank it is very hard to decipher bullying behavior from "positive leadership",
I personally have not suffered from bullying, however I have had people say to me "I don't understand why you let *************** speak to you like that," I tend not to let personal comments get in the way of getting a job done.
seen from outside, I do suffer from bullying, however I do not consider it bullying cause I take no notice of personal jibes. I have never suffered from physical bullying so I don't know what my response would be under those situations, But I don't think it would be particualary :lol: 8O good :wink: :lol:
 
whitemouse said:
Maxi wrote " In the civilian workplace....."

Supervisors only have what 'powers' are allowed under company rules - and that depends on how trustworthy / supportive a company is.
In this day and age, the Human Rights Act and the CRE has given 'powers' to every TD & H to accuse any line manager of every abuse from being born in the wrong part of the world to breathing the wrong way.
Both these organisations, in my view, allow unconfirmed, unsupported accusations to control the life of everyone (I have had this frightening experience).
But these companies can themselves also be responsible for bullying and intimidating tactics, and these can vary in intensity and subtlety, particularly so when TUPE is involved, some companies (and again I have had this experience) will do anything in their power to remove an ex-member of a previously contracted company by any means they can - and it sometimes works in that people will leave 'of their own accord' instead of fighting a losing battle in trying to keep their job, and to prove these companies are resorting to such tactics themselves.
You wrote that you were targetted as a 'threat' - a very similar circumstance to mine - but that could be because of RN training coming to the fore perhaps?
In answer to Lingyai - when you have a family & responsibilities (debts?) then you try to laugh these things off, but the time comes when you have to stand up the little cowpats !!
Trust I have not bored anyone - if so......... you know the answer :wink:

I agree, work place bullying covers a wide range of activities both personal and corporate, although certainly from where I sit the corporate stuff seems to be on the decline as 90s Macho Management is progressively seen to be the failure it was.

I was a threat because one I had been the previous directors 'chosen one' to succeed him but he was a maverick too and the company wanted some one more likely to conform, and to add insult to injury he was a crab SD type and had a chip the size of a mountain about 'real' officers, silly fellow.

The company started to back peddle as soon as I started to fight back, and even the personell prat realised he had been misled. The whole campaing collapsed when the director was shown up badly when in company with the Finance director we went out to India to negotiate a contract and all the work was done by me and the Fnance directo and my director acted as our gofer.

Peter
 
So to me the "bullying" tag is a grey area, it appears that unhappiness in the workplace with opinion differences might be seen as bullying.
The most common definition for bullying appears to be....
the act of intimidating a weaker person to make them do something
This can surely be dealt with in these modern times, and if not, then surely the individuals inability is the problem ?
 
Bullying is bad news. However, the theory that someone is being bullied if they feel that they are being bullied is a nonsense. Managing a situation might require the manager to be insistent, but that does not necessarily constitute bullying, victimisation, harassment or any of the other reasons for which equal opps actions may be taken. It's a given that there is sometimes right in these actions, but it doesn't seem that those who sit in judgement of these situations are ever able to be objective enough in their decision making, which can often put an effective manager in an unwarranted position of criticism.
 
I would suggest that the effective manager is the one who motivates his/her staff to get the job done in the appropriate manner without them fealing they are being bullied.
 
Lingyai said:
I cannot believe that people allow bullying to happen to them as adults, this is a weird subject. Vexing indeed.

It is not something you 'can' control. All it takes it for one or two people to call you something bad or rip into you once a day for a few weeks and bang, bobs ya uncle! Your esteem is lower than average!

One point or another we have all been ganged up on, bullied, ripped into, you name it!

A while back I knew a lass, bubbly, fun, social, out going and never cared what any one thought of her. She had a stunning body and was a looker but it took one complete basteward to change her. She was in the RN at the time and met a lad who was in the RM's. They were just being 'social' but she wouldn't give in to his advances aka he wanted to fcuk her silly and she had other ideas :wink:

He started spreading rumours around about her and we all know how quick a lie can spread, like wild fire in straw!

He would send her the odd text or two, see her in town and throw abuse. Then he caught her on her own, jesters was kicking out and it was a warm night so she decided to walk back and guess who she bumped into. She never made it back to base, well she did by via A&E.

I'll leave it aty that, it is not a nice story at all.

For months after that she lost friends, people taunted her and others claiming she was asking for what happened.
 
Maxi_77 said:
I would suggest that the effective manager is the one who motivates his/her staff to get the job done in the appropriate manner without them fealing they are being bullied.

Whilst I wouldn't argue with that, not everyone is motivatable (if that's actually a word!) I believe that a leader / manager can encourage motivation, but that motivation per se is innate. My point about the EO approach is that it "takes sides" with the alleged bullied, rather than being even-handed. On the journey from allegation to resolution, the alleged bully can be broken for no good reason. There is too much room for malice for my liking.
 
I would change that to suggesting that in many disciplinary systems especially those in areas such as the civil service and the NHS start from the presumption that the accuser is right. This is of course quite clearly a wrong supposition, but having assisted a nurse accused of striking a patient I am aware of how the system works. In that case the person was completely exonerated after over 6 months suspension but the student nurse who made the allegation to get her own back for being disciplined had absolutely no action taken against her.

On the other hand I would respectfully suggest that in general far more bullies get of scott free than non bullies are punished. Of course both situations are wrong and perhaps making false accusations should be considered gross misconduct, which would probably cut down on a fair number of the frivolous claims.

Of course there will always be the chancers like the non qualified, non swimming gentleman from an ethnic minority who took a fiend of mine to a tribunal for discrimination because he did not get the job as a pool lifeguard. Fortunately the tribunal chairman was of the sensible sort and threw the case out in the first few minutes.

Peter
 
asst_dep_to_dep_asst said:
Incidentally, Peter, if you are not originally from "The Kingdom", make sure you are in possession of a good phrase book when you cross the Forth.

I have my own personal interpreter and advisor on their peculiar customs, although being a native to the southern side of the river I have owned a 'lang spoon' for some time.

Peter
 
Lingyai said:
I cannot believe that people allow bullying to happen to them as adults, this is a weird subject. Vexing indeed.


I did not allow this to happen not intentionally anyway, the Person who was bullying was a Senior Officer at the base, to be bullied at any age is bad enough but to get it at the age of 35 i just couldnt believe it, i tried to deny it, even said it was my problem, if you ever been bullied you make excuses for them, say its because there having a bad day, ect.

I too was brought up with the notion, just dont let it get you down, dont complain and crack on with it, but after months of intimidation snide comments etc, knowing that my DO knew and various other Peeps knew about what was happening, what option was there left for me, i submitted my notice and at the COs table i explained my reasons, but alais nothing was done.

The same officer had a civillian make an offical complaint against him and BOI was set up and I was called forward, I mention everything that had happened to me and yet still nothing was done, no advice given, or offered

Dont get me wrong, ive recived bollockings like every man, did 9s and even 10s, had to do the shite jobs etc been the mess bitch, but i could tell that was different, what happened to me was nasty and vindictive.

Yes i have thought about doing something about this now i'm a civvie, but again whats the point!, I wasnt listened to whilst i was serving what chance have I now i'm a Civvie?
 
Apologies for my late reply as I have just returned from a fortnight away.

Maxi_77 said:
I would change that to suggesting that in many disciplinary systems especially those in areas such as the civil service and the NHS start from the presumption that the accuser is right. This is of course quite clearly a wrong supposition...

This is not necessarily the case Peter. In the Civil Service (where I worked for 3 years) as well as the august body I currently work for which is not part of the civil service but has similar conditions of service, the position of management has been inconsistent but has typically followed a pattern. The favoured, by which I mean friends of management, who themselves may make malicious allegations, have their allegations taken seriously, investigated and acted upon - I have been at the receiving end of this when the woman bullying me made a malicious allegation about me which was promptly investigated and I was forced to write her an apology or be dismissed. I was told to admit the accusation or face instant dismissal. I made a false confession! At work I must still pretend that I did the wrong whilst knowing that I didn't - this has a profound psychological impact over the years. The false confession was all to do with lack of self confidence, depression, anxiety and stress, plus the certainty that the manager had already decided I was guilty anyway so the facts were irrelevant. This was galling having spent years on the receiving end of the complainant's behaviour and being told by the same senior manager who disciplined me for this allegation, that I should, in effect, ignore it. Some of the excuses on different occassions when I made some form of complaint, usually at the time of my annual report, were as follows:-

'It's just a personality clash Steve'

'.......was seriously ill with ... cancer several years ago...' [that's why you need to make allowances for her behaviour]

''.......was seriously ill with [different type of] cancer in her late teens...' [that's why you need to make allowances for her behaviour]'

'Of course you are mentally ill, Steve.'

For the unfavoured the presumtion always seems to be that the complainant is a troublemaker and that the best course of action is to believe the perpetrator - which incidentally is a mirror image, perhaps unsuprisingly, of what used to happen at my comprehensive school when some (a minority of) teachers assaulted pupils. Always believe the perpetrator & dismiss the case. Over the years one becomes VERY, VERY cynical. To be honest, this is one of the reasons why I have no confidence in the criminal justice system (the other being its historic treatment of gays).

On the other hand I would respectfully suggest that in general far more bullies get off scott free than non bullies are punished. Of course both situations are wrong and perhaps making false accusations should be considered gross misconduct, which would probably cut down on a fair number of the frivolous claims. Peter

I broadly agree with this. In reality the situation acts as a deterrent to anyone who is psychologically damaged by their experience from seeking redress, as they are the least likely to expect to have their complaints taken seriously = being treated as a malicious complainant!

Madmungo said:
Lingyai said:
I cannot believe that people allow bullying to happen to them as adults, this is a weird subject. Vexing indeed.


I did not allow this to happen not intentionally anyway, the Person who was bullying was a Senior Officer at the base, to be bullied at any age is bad enough but to get it at the age of 35 i just couldnt believe it, i tried to deny it, even said it was my problem, if you ever been bullied you make excuses for them, say its because there having a bad day, ect.

I too was brought up with the notion, just dont let it get you down, dont complain and crack on with it, but after months of intimidation snide comments etc, knowing that my DO knew and various other Peeps knew about what was happening, what option was there left for me, i submitted my notice and at the COs table i explained my reasons, but alais nothing was done.

The same officer had a civillian make an offical complaint against him and BOI was set up and I was called forward, I mention everything that had happened to me and yet still nothing was done, no advice given, or offered

Dont get me wrong, ive recived bollockings like every man, did 9s and even 10s, had to do the shite jobs etc been the mess bitch, but i could tell that was different, what happened to me was nasty and vindictive.

Yes i have thought about doing something about this now i'm a civvie, but again whats the point!, I wasnt listened to whilst i was serving what chance have I now i'm a Civvie?

I agree Madmungo, there is little point. Airing it on RR however is a different matter. Ironically exposing what really goes on behind the facade of recruitment properganda and claims by senior officers to Parliament that they take bullying seriously, will do far more good. After all, a problem hidden is a problem forgotten!

Steve.
 
Whilst I would agree that in the past public service employers would most often take the word of either respected, long serving or favoured staff, the pc era has I fear brought in a greater propensity to accept allegations of non pc behaviour as a matter of principal even before the evidence is heard and thus the accused is treated as guilty from day one. To give you an example a chum of mine who was taken to an employement tribunal for racial discrimination was told by his employer that he should have employed the person. The case was about a person of ethnic origin who was applying for a position as a lifguard at a local authority swimming pool, and admitted at the interview that they could not swim. Fortunately the tribunal chairman was made of sterner stuff and dismissed the case as soon as the non swimming ability was made known. From other incidents I have heard of this is not atypical.

I understand your concerns on disciplining false complainers, but the present system does give some real rats in public service an immense hold over those who actually try to do a decent job.

Peter
 

Latest Threads

Top