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pc and bullying

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
Levers, don't include me as an advocate of bullying, I fully agree with you on the whole, todays Navy suits the time and reflects society, try reading the whole F*cking thread not just the bits you have an opinion on.

Your little rant however went a bit off thread and there is nothing I hate more than to hear someone who seems to know what he is talking about make a statement which suits business more than the armed forces........Our investors dividend is security not cash, loss making assets today are missing assets tomorrow, the current short sightedness of the treasury will bite us in the ass tomorrow, have a read of the National Audit Offices armed forces study, not funny by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry if that was also a bit off thread.
 

Tingara

Badgeman
after reading nuttys posts I remember serving with a queens killick on hmas melbourne,stoker he was,plenty of 3 badgers in the RAN.
ps - I got 2
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
chieftiff said:
Your little rant however went a bit off thread and there is nothing I hate more than to hear someone who seems to know what he is talking about make a statement which suits business more than the armed forces........

Face it. Is there any other way? Many people joke about the 'plc' tag line for HM Forces but unfortunately that's the way it actually is. Sure, it's not good for us, but what alternative is there? I have advocated for many years that if the AF is to be run along commercial lines, then it's workforce deserves representation in parity with civilian counterparts. Not necessarily a union, but the much vaunted federation would go a long way to ensuring that today's workforces isn't summarily shafted by every good ideas club and committee that comes along. I have heard people on here whining about change too much; there is absolutely not one chance that the navy will step back in time and return to the 'old ways' (which themselves had detractors in their time) The best we can hope for is that we will become accustomed to change and work with it - bend with the wind, so to speak - and seek greater representation to have our opinions and structured alternatives heard high on up. Ask many young matelots what grips their shit these days and you will hear a litany of 'personal' bellyaches from carping about why they were indiviually seen off for a watchkeepers make'n'mend, to why selective cereals aren't out for breakfast. They couldn't care a shite about the big picture issues and those that will kick them in the arse in the future. It works a treat for those upstairs because ignorance is their bliss. It would be a fitting change if people became just a little more politically aware and started asking the pertinent questions, rather than either whining about it and doing nothing, or being ambivalent.

Like it or not, this business we are in is owned not by the Queen, or Admirals, or any other romantic concept, much as it pisses people off. It is owned by technocrats, accountants and faceless dickheads who enjoy the rich aroma of power but never venture far enough from their cosy little world to see the effects of their near-sighted notions. Today, the new religion is money, and every single asset this nation owns has a working price attached to it. Thems the breaks, as I keep saying, and until the day of the revolution all we do is keep the wheels turning and hope for better days.

Levers
 

Bernoulli

Midshipman
Lingyai said:
It wasn't the loss of the fun factor, because that never really disappeared, fun can be made out of anything as long as you have a sense of humour and don't take life too seriously.
As for the mob not being what it used to be, that is definite. The life on my last ship was good, the lads in my section were the best of the best, I led by example and although we weren't against the odd scudding to enforce a point, it was rarely required. I never once had to tell my boys how to be the best turned out and positively motivated onboard, but they were, they did as I did and conducted themselves in the same way. They were smart, technicaly adept and respectful, but then we were a small unit out of the "mainstream" navy and had the freedom to train as we saw fit with more authority per rank than is allowed normaly.
Towards the end of my career I came full circle and became an Instructor (which I surprisingly enjoyed), and the joy I got from the interest of sutdents who really wanted to be a part of the team and learn something was amazing. No, I did not teach in an "orthodox" manner and it certainly was outside the politicaly correct arena, but my results spoke for themselves and it was a great success ( I would surely have been binned by some of the Dartmouth schooly types if they had their way, but my results were always better than theirs because A I knew what I was teaching and about real life on ships and what the kids needed to know and B Having a bad ass warrant on your side who prefered results to politics was nice (shame they are a dying breed).
Unfortunately, the motivated interested students were no more than 25% at best Fact, and that just isn;t good enough, I was even ordered to pass certain categories of student (for numbers) which I refused to do, but of course they couldn't take that one as far as I was prepared to.
It soon became apparent that we were getting too few people in the mob that were going to make the grade, not what we needed at all. Also with the way the fleet was going, there was the looming threat of having to serve on Pompey 42s and not much else. Having gone outside mainstream navy for so many years and having so much responsibilty, going back to warship mentality was gonna be bad. By the way, working with the Royals really is a breath of fresh air, and I would recommend it, they actualy treat you like an adult. I spent a couple of months on the sausage prior to leaving and it was as I feared. So, I took my own advice to all those fat whiners who sit around staff rooms and canteens complaining about the mob, if you don't like it , leave.
I did everything I wanted to in the mob, acheived more than I thought possible, loved it and it set me up for a life and a dream job that I never could have hoped to have without my military experience.Lucky for me I got out "just" before it got too bad and before I got too bitter. Some of my comrades who are on extended service for purely financial reasons tell me they wish they could say the same.

Hmmm. WEM's badge, "dream job", Bangkok.

You didn't by any chance end up as a fluffer in the Thai transgender porn industry did you? :D
 
Bernoulli said:
Hmmm. WEM's badge, "dream job", Bangkok.

You didn't by any chance end up as a fluffer in the Thai transgender porn industry did you? :D
Nah mate, but I won't say I have never had any experiance of that industry...........
Hmmmmm slutz with nutz, my fave
 
higthepig said:
WEll nozzer well just have to agree to disagree,of course there were gays ,and if caught were booted out,tho it wasnt hidden so much as the officer class(if you doubt that,read naval history)of a day far far older than ours.As for marriage or civil partnership between them,how do they have children?If iwere a muslim and said behead them all that would be ok(and it has been said)But as a christian i cant say that or im carted off,Ihave an old friend who is ravingly gay, but hes nice to talk to ,hes very comical and he never goes on to anyone of his sexual preference,but firmly believes that marriage is for males and females; but then again,in this day and age of political correctness God knows where it will end. ill live my life you live yours.

We will have to agree to disagree. Regarding linking marriage to having children, well I do not really agree. After all on this basis infertile couples couldn't marry, unless one accepts Finnis' idea that the potential to have children is sufficient grounds: the problem here is, of course, that this could be used to justify legalising heterosexual sexual abuse of children! I find it a bit hypocritical for religions to oppose basic rights for gays such as marriage when the denial of basic rights to Christians abroad, mostly in Moslem countries, is vigourously condemned. As Christ said: do unto others as you would have done unto yourself. I should also point out that Christians in the UK can advocate exterminating gays on theological grounds so long as they cite scripture, as has been demonstrated in Swedish case law (see: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat8.htm , and in particular: http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=889&date=20050125 ) on European Human rights grounds, though this appears to conflict with protecting the rights & freedoms of gays, here, not to be killed, which violates Article 1 of the European Convention of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms 1950. Where the Police harass Christians for acts where they fail to take similar action against Moslems, this is clearly religious discrimination against Christians' rights and is illegal. The remedy is to litigate! (see: http://www.christian.org.uk/pressreleases/2006/march_13_2006.htm ) I also do not believe that a religious group should be entitled to define marriage according to religious ideology and impose their ideology on those of us (humanists like myself) who have not chosen a religious lifestyle choice. For the record I do think straights should be allowed to enter into civil partnerships, now that the government have accepted defining marriage according to religious ideology, including spinsters, etc: about the only issue where I share the position of the Christian Institute!
 
janner said:
I saw very little bullying during my time, and that was all during the training period. Being pushed away from the side of the swimming pool with a large pole whilst quietly drowning, being tapped with a sawn off billiard cue when learning to touch type, the rules were you didn't look at the keys, if you did you risked the cue. During the first couple of weeks in basic training if anyone spoke after lights out the whole mess was punished, doubling up and down the road at Mercury in PJ's, Pussers Burberry and Gas Mask was a favourite, is it bullying or discipline, as Nutty says we were stroppy youngsters.

I never witnessed any bullying onboard Ship or in Boats, I've thought long and hard about this and the only time that I can remember anyone laying hands on anyone else was when one youngster lost the plot during one of the bad times on a boat (the DE men will remember how things used to go wrong at times) and a Canadian Killick delivered one of the sweetest uppercuts that I have ever seen, it put the lad out cold and when he came around he was fine. I should add that as his panic grew all other avenues of reason had been tried.

I have no doubts that there were incidents that should not have happened and no doubt they still happen today, but, lets not let the PC brigade re write history and produce it in the way that suits them

Part of the problem with bullying is any given individual's perception. For example I do not consider having to crouch down in a dustbin and stand up (with the lid carefully perched on top of my cap) and shout "I'm a fucking cunt!" every minute or so, for being bad at drill on ocassions, as bullying (embarassing, certainly :oops: ) but today a teenage boy probably would consider it to be bullying behaviour. I suspect that this is not allowed today at Raleigh? When Ganges first moved ashore 101 years ago, there was condemnation by the old salts of the day, insisting that land based training and sleeping in beds would never produce tough, self-reliant sailors: well they were wrong! Also if you got caned, you didn't see it as a human rights violation and reach for your lawyer and your parents didn't (usually) write to your MP, you simply accepted it as the way things were (more or less :( ) The thing is, things have changed: what we accepted in our day is not acceptable today. I'm certainly glad they had done away with keel hauling at Ganges by the early 1960s: otherwise I'd have got very muddy. It must have been awful in the 50s :lol:
 
suprised at you nozzer,were you really put in a dustbin?I joined in jan 56,and hand on heart i have not come across that sort of treatment,and tho not treated with kid gloves, that is really over the top.But then my instuctors were war time people,perhaps that was the difference,and as for your views on marriage and christianity,unless ive got the thread wrong,all i can say to that is ,thank god my parents were married, no offence meant,were yours?.
 
higthepig said:
suprised at you nozzer,were you really put in a dustbin?I joined in jan 56,and hand on heart i have not come across that sort of treatment,and tho not treated with kid gloves, that is really over the top.But then my instuctors were war time people,perhaps that was the difference,and as for your views on marriage and christianity,unless ive got the thread wrong,all i can say to that is ,thank god my parents were married, no offence meant,were yours?.

My parents were married. My views on Christianity probably owe a great deal to having it rammed down my throat at primary school and, in particular, hypocrisy. I finally lost my faith when I visited the museum at Dachau in the 1970s. What really bothers me is that the church uses very similar language towards gays today that it used against Jews during my parents childhood. This is especially apparent when you read old copies of L'Osservatore Romano from the time of Benedict XV to Pius XI & XII. I do not want to keep silent as my parents' generation did toward the Jews and allow the Holocaust to be repeated, in another form, on gays: staying silent is not an option for me. What is currently going on in Catholic Poland does not bode well!

Never in a dustbin? You haven't lived! I think I really belonged in it, though the acoustics were a little on the poor site: it did amplify the wind blowing outside a bit! The problem with Ganges dustbins were that although immaculate on the exterior, the contact of uniform and the interior meant more :!: dhobeying! Perhaps someone ought to put me in one now :wink: and I promise to shout at the top of my voice (a la falsetto): I am bloody rubbish, sir! :lol:
 
I am pleased to report after many discussions with mates serving and ex, that most hold the view that religious types are a bit on the strange side and no one really take them too seriously in this day and age. I had a lady friend from singapore visit and she was a left footer and wanted me to take her to church. I went with her and sat in the back to witness a very sad bunch of people being controlled by their puppet master.
As for homos, well, they might as well get on with it, I grew up in Brighton and the first kid to have the nerve to come out was obviously given a good bit of bullying, but no more than the fat kid, the spotty kid and the kid from the council house who got free dinners and hand me downs. If they want to be doing their thing these days well good luck to them, my motto is if it feels good, do it, and if uphill gardening works for you then so be it. Where I live now it is a very accepted part of life, but deep down you can see the shame of the parents knowing they have an abnormal child who will not provide a decent way to carry on the family line with honour.
However. Should they be in the navy? Do you want to be sharing communal showers with someone who finds the same sex attractive? No. The men of the RN want to be part of a proud force and it cannot be such a force with little nancy going ashore and lip locking with some bootneck at the bar, or commenting on the killick chefs nice little arse in his whites.
A place for everything and everything in it's place, year 2006, homos acceptable? Yes, but not in the RN.
 
Lingyai said:
I am pleased to report after many discussions with mates serving and ex, that most hold the view that religious types are a bit on the strange side and no one really take them too seriously in this day and age. I had a lady friend from singapore visit and she was a left footer and wanted me to take her to church. I went with her and sat in the back to witness a very sad bunch of people being controlled by their puppet master.
As for homos, well, they might as well get on with it, I grew up in Brighton and the first kid to have the nerve to come out was obviously given a good bit of bullying, but no more than the fat kid, the spotty kid and the kid from the council house who got free dinners and hand me downs. If they want to be doing their thing these days well good luck to them, my motto is if it feels good, do it, and if uphill gardening works for you then so be it. Where I live now it is a very accepted part of life, but deep down you can see the shame of the parents knowing they have an abnormal child who will not provide a decent way to carry on the family line with honour.
However. Should they be in the navy? Do you want to be sharing communal showers with someone who finds the same sex attractive? No. The men of the RN want to be part of a proud force and it cannot be such a force with little nancy going ashore and lip locking with some bootneck at the bar, or commenting on the killick chefs nice little arse in his whites.
A place for everything and everything in it's place, year 2006, homos acceptable? Yes, but not in the RN.

I personally never encountered this sort of thing when (closeted) gays were onboard. Or rather I should say, that gays never bothered me. They kept themselves to themselves. As for sharing showers with gays, well I don't know really, put another way, as a straight, would I feel comfy sharing a shower with the lasses on board and letting them wash my back, who might also view me as a sex object? YES, YES, YES!!! :D :D :D What a pity they were stuck in the Wrens in my time! It could be an age thing. Just to put gays in the showers in some perspective: I hated having my foreskin inpected at Ganges for signs of less than thorough cleaning after showers and would personally rather have gays in the shower/mess any day to having to go through Ganges foreskin inspections again! :lol: But we're all different.
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
Lingyai said:
....shame of the parents knowing they have an abnormal child...

I have a few gay friends who would possibly kick your fucking arse for that comment. They may not share my particular taste in partners, but 'abnormal'?

However. Should they be in the navy? Do you want to be sharing communal showers with someone who finds the same sex attractive? No. The men of the RN want to be part of a proud force and it cannot be such a force with little nancy going ashore and lip locking with some bootneck at the bar, or commenting on the killick chefs nice little arse in his whites.
A place for everything and everything in it's place, year 2006, homos acceptable? Yes, but not in the RN.

So, in your years, do you reckon you've never shared a messdeck with someone who has been just ever-so-slightly light in the loafers? You've probably never even noticed. By your dickheaded assumptions, has the past 400 years seen absolutely no occurance of such people carrying out a career in the RN (or any of the forces, for that matter) Before you say, 'yeah, but they soon get found out and kicked out', think again. I'd say you've more than likely served, if not slept in close proximity with a homosexual. Hey what a 'horrid thought', huh? Because they have decriminalised homosexuality (like good Western societies do, mind, let's face it, them there 'rag-heads' who you hate so much amonst others share your POV) do you reckon that the flood gates have suddenly burst open and we have had a gout of gays screaming their way to the recruiting office, just on the offchance they could ping your dick in the shower?

Fucking laughable.

Like I say. It's best you're out, because I sure don't feel too safe at all, me.

You are clearly stone age man beating on the door of credibility, aren't you?

Levers
 
Ah we meet again mr levers. So you have some gay friends eh? Good for you, I would be shocked if you didn't, I bet you wear eco friendly sandals and drive an electric car as well. You are the poster boy for the modern "I want everyone to love me brigade" Maybe you didn't get enough attention as a child or were scudded around as a tea wetting junior, whatever it was it has turned you into someone who seeks approval from all quarters and the minute you don't like what others say you start with the Twat, Knobhead, Bellend remarks, I bet you stamp your feet as well don't you?
So in the natural order of things, is it not abnormal for a man to want to trolley another man? Of course it is, I said in my post that I thought that was OK, but it doesn't mean it is normal. As for your gay friends kicking my arse, get a life lofty, what are you back to, my dad is bigger than your dad? Tool!
The sooner you wake up and realise that a forum can be used for airing ones opinions the better, just because your verbal squits and tony blair speeches don't fit with others doesn't make you an authority on anything.
What gives you the impression that I hate camel jockeys? I think everyone should have one...
I agree that it is probably better that we don't share the same space, you wouldn't fit in too well in my cave. Give your pooh harbour friends my love, no hard feelings towards them XXX
 
Now lads, calm down. This is a friendly forum for happy sailors!

In the natural order of things was it normal to: salute the Mast at Ganges, climb into dustbins; scrub, dry and polish an already well polished deck; wearing bellbottoms which were easily tripped over when madly running to your next class, shit scared you'd be punished for damaging your trousers, not your skin :( ; skimmers lining the ship's side when arriving at port, wearing a dicky collar, holding your cap out to receive your weekly pocket money/pay, etc? Wearing square rig is definately abnormal! :roll:

Shaving, instead of cultivating a healthy beard, that's definately abnormal!

So there you are, all sailors are abnormal! Well, except submariners :lol: Come to think of it, working for a living when you could live off the state - that's very abnormal.
 
Nozzy just a few words regarding normality in boys training establishments.

Saluting Masts--they usually contained Flags being hoisted or lowered. The Flag being a symbol of your part in the Queens [sovereign] Navy. Yes it was still is --tradition .

As for dustbin dwelling--well surprise surprise We in St Vincent never bothered --any wrong doing was rewarded by multiple circuits of the parade ground.Apart from that the dustbins were too small for most of us lads to get into anyway.
Polishing decks-- well it was a house keeping chore -same as the polished spit kids etc etc. everyone did it--no demarcation or chosen person doing it.
Damaged Kit --you got a replacement item . The bell bottoms were a naval uniform item steeped in tradition ---tripping because they were bell bottomed ---------------- pish off. We wore gaiters most days and any running was usually done wearing shorts and sports rig.Or No 8's working rig.

Square rig -uniform abnormal-- possible but a long time realising it -Navy ratings wore it from the mid 1800's in various modes. I suppose the kilt is abnormal for the scottish regiments too. Tradition being part of all service life.
Pay parade/muster -very early days doffing hat to recieve the wage paid to the penny --no bank transfers then. Your hat was a convienient place to collect it on!! And you could count it!!

As for beards--well at 15 years old we didn't need to shave
 
Greenie said:
Nozzy just a few words regarding normality in boys training establishments.

Saluting Masts--they usually contained Flags being hoisted or lowered. The Flag being a symbol of your part in the Queens [sovereign] Navy. Yes it was still is --tradition .

As for dustbin dwelling--well surprise surprise We in St Vincent never bothered --any wrong doing was rewarded by multiple circuits of the parade ground.Apart from that the dustbins were too small for most of us lads to get into anyway.
Polishing decks-- well it was a house keeping chore -same as the polished spit kids etc etc. everyone did it--no demarcation or chosen person doing it.
Damaged Kit --you got a replacement item . The bell bottoms were a naval uniform item steeped in tradition ---tripping because they were bell bottomed ---------------- pish off. We wore gaiters most days and any running was usually done wearing shorts and sports rig.Or No 8's working rig.

Square rig -uniform abnormal-- possible but a long time realising it -Navy ratings wore it from the mid 1800's in various modes. I suppose the kilt is abnormal for the scottish regiments too. Tradition being part of all service life.
Pay parade/muster -very early days doffing hat to recieve the wage paid to the penny --no bank transfers then. Your hat was a convienient place to collect it on!! And you could count it!!

As for beards--well at 15 years old we didn't need to shave

You are right of course Greenie, though actually I did trip over my bellbottoms as a nozzer, but that may have had more to do with clumsiness than the bells. The more I read about St.Vincent the more I like the sound of it: much more civilised.

The point I was making is that normality is very much relative, though actually I do regard homosexuality as medically abnormal. I love tradition and customs and still wear starched wing collars when I can get away with it, walking breeches and other strange and abnormal outfits. Looking at it objectivly, say as a Martian visiting us from afar, it would definately appear abnormal.

I don't think dustbins, like having to bury kit in the ground, were widely used, but for some POs they were obviously thought essential to teaching us our place :|

Regarding beards, I actually meant as adults but put it down poorly.
 

Geoff_Wessex

Lantern Swinger
NozzyNozzer said:
Just to put gays in the showers in some perspective: I hated having my foreskin inpected at Ganges for signs of less than thorough cleaning after showers and would personally rather have gays in the shower/mess any day to having to go through Ganges foreskin inspections again! :lol: But we're all different.

I think I can safely say that your Ganges instructor was a pervert, cos I'm sure that wasn't part of his task. And I dare anybody to say I'm not PC by using that word to describe him!

Like Janner and Nutty - no coincidence they were also submariners - I don't recall seeing any bullying in my years either, (67-91), apart from some 'rough justice' by instructors. In my General Service time though, I've seen mental bullying by 'Captains' towards junior officers, and sometimes by officers making 'decisions' (sometimes originating from their own superiors) which badly affect Junior Rates. It always leaves the Senior Rates in that lousy position where they face a choice of standing up for their lads and risking their own rates or losing their 'cred' with their subordinates. I've been there.
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
Lingyai said:
...quack, quack, quack...etc...

Again, Lingyai, I'd wager that big gob of yours would be firmly shut if you were in the company of those you slag off so wildly. Mind you, you'd never be caught with them would you, you bastion of righteousness? Why, they'd probably try and 'gay you up' or even turn you into a Moslem, the very things you fear so badly. That's right. Fear so badly.

Life is excellent. Just not for you, eh?

Eds, whatever you do, don't ever ban this chimp. He's fucking superb entertainment.

Levers
 
Geoff_Wessex said:
NozzyNozzer said:
Just to put gays in the showers in some perspective: I hated having my foreskin inpected at Ganges for signs of less than thorough cleaning after showers and would personally rather have gays in the shower/mess any day to having to go through Ganges foreskin inspections again! :lol: But we're all different.

I think I can safely say that your Ganges instructor was a pervert, cos I'm sure that wasn't part of his task. And I dare anybody to say I'm not PC by using that word to describe him!

That's a relief, though I must admit I though it was the "norm" in JTEs. Clearly this demonstrates the power of suggestion by an authority figure to 15 year olds: if it's the norm for all Juniors in the RN then who were we to complain? Pity nobody dared complain, it might have been stopped: but then who'd believe Juniors' testimony over an instructor, or any other adult for that matter :(
 
Levers_Aligned said:
Lingyai said:
...quack, quack, quack...etc...

Again, Lingyai, I'd wager that big gob of yours would be firmly shut if you were in the company of those you slag off so wildly. Mind you, you'd never be caught with them would you, you bastion of righteousness? Why, they'd probably try and 'gay you up' or even turn you into a Moslem, the very things you fear so badly. That's right. Fear so badly.

Life is excellent. Just not for you, eh?

Eds, whatever you do, don't ever ban this chimp. He's fucking superb entertainment.

Levers


Might be an interesting first case ------homophobia release from the Navy.
The mental recognised illness dislike of anything Homosexual possible fear of being near homophiles

Might be an escape route for heterosexuals -let the benders get on with it!
 
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