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pc and bullying

Well at last us oldies can never win,some of these comments tho, do prove a point,change for changes sake, if i served in an archaic navy, how the hell do you know, you werent there, while i appreciate your point of view surely we are entitled to ours.without trying to belittle us all the time. When i was a young sailor i was a real little siht,if anyone did anything to me that i didnt like i would get them back a thousandfold,but as you get older you become more tolerant,more laid back chilled out that sort of thing,oh just let go its not important anymore .But having read some of this latest crap, its like a F**KING REBIRTH.
 

MightyCrash

Badgeman
Joined up in '96 so never saw the "good scudding when you f*cked up type of bullying but to be honest I can see why it went - I mean, how many of the old boys go on about how good it was to accept a good slap if they made a mistake and how it made a man of them - if thats how to make a man of someone get yourself into prison, I'm sure that sort of thing goes on there and they come out alright!? Don't think it made any difference, they just didn't get caught again - as for the PC thing, I agree, it has gone a bit far and people are complaining about too much these days, but if things didn't change we'd still be firing cannons at each other, it's a case of if you don't like the changes get out!

I once had an an argument with a Killick when I was a baby AB on my first ship who, while pissed, gave us all in the mess a big lecture about how the Navy was chaging, how he'd been in 20 years and how he hated it, when I asked him why he didn't put his notice in he started ranting and raving. People like that should get out (only 12 months notice now people) or shut up and crack on.

The pension may be great but would you continue to eat from the bilge for an extra 2 years just to get the pension?
 

harryaitch

Lantern Swinger
MightyCrash said:
Joined up in '96 so never saw the "good scudding when you f*cked up type of bullying but to be honest I can see why it went - I mean, how many of the old boys go on about how good it was to accept a good slap if they made a mistake and how it made a man of them - if thats how to make a man of someone get yourself into prison, I'm sure that sort of thing goes on there and they come out alright!? Don't think it made any difference, they just didn't get caught again - as for the PC thing, I agree, it has gone a bit far and people are complaining about too much these days, but if things didn't change we'd still be firing cannons at each other, it's a case of if you don't like the changes get out!

I once had an an argument with a Killick when I was a baby AB on my first ship who, while pissed, gave us all in the mess a big lecture about how the Navy was chaging, how he'd been in 20 years and how he hated it, when I asked him why he didn't put his notice in he started ranting and raving. People like that should get out (only 12 months notice now people) or shut up and crack on.

The pension may be great but would you continue to eat from the bilge for an extra 2 years just to get the pension?
Things need to change and as you say, firing a cannon from a wooden ship at another wooden ship is a bygone age,as is the period of service I did in the early sixties.
Technology advances at an alarming rate and we must go with it.But that does not take away the memories and experiences of those who served in a bygone age,and must be treated with a bit of respect 8) The modern navy is always changing,but people dont.You will always find the bully,pisshead,and mesdeck clown.they will never change. :(
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
Nutty said:
his dit...

Listen. As much as people bemoan the 'outsourcing' of services to contractors, no one can convince me that having a gigantic civil service which ran everything dockyard and beyond was much cop at all, especially when most of it is in the grip of the unions. I am of an age where I remember ten dockies to one job and shitloads of shrapnel sat in FMG stealing taxpayers cash by doing fuck-all. Take a big, fat look around you at the switch from manufacturing and industry to services. It was the only way this country could compete in Europe and coupled with that was the fact that within our little empire, there was at least twenty thousand tons of flesh wobbling about which could be either disposed of or re-employed. We don't build ships any more in our yards and they became hideously expensive to upkeep at the expense of the taxpayer. Yes, 'tax'. And strangely enough, the cost of living has remained comparitively low in recent years, thanks to measures that mean that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to defend this country with twenty Type 23s sat alongside doing jack shit and Type 42s burning 15 tons of diesel an hour teararsing along the south coast. Some of you guys have difficulty in comprehending that the navy is no longer a romantic game played out for your own benefit. Sure, you can dip in and make the most of the advantages therein, but please, get it into your minds that where once the government splashed out billions on keeping transiting fleets at sea from one run ashore to another for the sake of Harry and the King, nowdays we have different priorities and certainly face different challenges. It is a business environment, no longer the preserve of the politically ignorant and ambivalent. Everything has a reason behind it and as long as you stay aware of those reasons and kkepp your eyes and your mind open, you will survive ahead of those who choose to drip like septic arses about 'change'.

Not all changes are great, but then again we aren't involved in an employment which gives us a say. Thems the breaks. That much has never changed.

Levers
 
Levers

May be its the 'septic arses' (your choice of title not mine) who are desperate to promote change, which will allow THEM to stay ahead of everybody else.

A look at the NHS, Education, Police and Courts, Health and Safety, MOD, transport etc. indicate failure year on year.

Living in Spain where, NHS, Education, Police and Courts, Health and Safety, MOD, transport etc. seem to work very efficiently where only lip service is paid to EC rules.

I think you must have a vested career interest in change.

Nutty
 

clanky

War Hero
Speaking as one who joined at the very end of the so -called good old days, I have to challenge this perception of the navy as being more effective than it is now. Bullying DID take place, perpetrated by 3 badge ABs who would'nt last 5 minutes in todays enviroment. I often wonder if the old style engagements didnt make these already weak men feel somehow trapped in the Mob. Perhaps the introduction of the Open Engagement was a change more far reaching than any of the changes that have happened since.
Unlike the 60s/70s navy, it cannot have escaped anyones notice that the RN has been rather busy operationally. If we really where as bad as some members of this board would have us believe, we would'nt be achieving more with less would we?
When I joined up the Navy used to employ trained men in the swampy mattress store FFS. Its easy to do stuff when the solution to every problem is to throw manpower at it.
 

Skunkmiester

Lantern Swinger
Littoraldifficulty said:
For those people whpo alwayshark back to the 'good 'ol days' this is a little story i got told when i was instructing at CTC and they were trying to prevent the standards from creeping UP as they always do:

CTC? I take it you mean Commando Training Center. Would you care to qualify that remark?
 
clanky said:
Speaking as one who joined at the very end of the so -called good old days, I have to challenge this perception of the navy as being more effective than it is now. Bullying DID take place, perpetrated by 3 badge ABs who would'nt last 5 minutes in todays enviroment. I often wonder if the old style engagements didnt make these already weak men feel somehow trapped in the Mob. Perhaps the introduction of the Open Engagement was a change more far reaching than any of the changes that have happened since.
Unlike the 60s/70s navy, it cannot have escaped anyones notice that the RN has been rather busy operationally. If we really where as bad as some members of this board would have us believe, we would'nt be achieving more with less would we?
When I joined up the Navy used to employ trained men in the swampy mattress store FFS. Its easy to do stuff when the solution to every problem is to throw manpower at it.

I agree broadly, though to be fair, we did have the Cold War in the 1960/70s which to some extent influenced the types of conflicts we became involved in. For example, the US and Britain would not have invaded Iraq in the days of the Warsaw Pact, notwithstanding fighting her armed forces during the First Gulf War: but the circumstances there were very different.

A navy with minimal bullying is the best thing though. It is not conducive to efficiency or a happy ship to have the odd matelot self-injuring himself to get transferred quickly to another ship because of bullying. Nor do you want bullies around during operations, weakening team cohesion and not pulling their weight! They might help toughen up recruits during part 1 training, but even here I remain unconvinced thinking about all the lads who used go on the run, getting dragged back and caned (something equally hard to cope with :cry: sadistic bastards) because they couldn't cope with being routinely singled out by bullying instructors. It's those instructors (a minority) who should have been, proverbially, strung up! I am a bit biased on this subject, though! :x
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
Levers_Aligned said:
Nutty said:
his dit...

Listen. As much as people bemoan the 'outsourcing' of services to contractors, no one can convince me that having a gigantic civil service which ran everything dockyard and beyond was much cop at all, especially when most of it is in the grip of the unions. I am of an age where I remember ten dockies to one job and shitloads of shrapnel sat in FMG stealing taxpayers cash by doing fuck-all. Take a big, fat look around you at the switch from manufacturing and industry to services. It was the only way this country could compete in Europe and coupled with that was the fact that within our little empire, there was at least twenty thousand tons of flesh wobbling about which could be either disposed of or re-employed. We don't build ships any more in our yards and they became hideously expensive to upkeep at the expense of the taxpayer. Yes, 'tax'. And strangely enough, the cost of living has remained comparitively low in recent years, thanks to measures that mean that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to defend this country with twenty Type 23s sat alongside doing jack shit and Type 42s burning 15 tons of diesel an hour teararsing along the south coast. Some of you guys have difficulty in comprehending that the navy is no longer a romantic game played out for your own benefit. Sure, you can dip in and make the most of the advantages therein, but please, get it into your minds that where once the government splashed out billions on keeping transiting fleets at sea from one run ashore to another for the sake of Harry and the King, nowdays we have different priorities and certainly face different challenges. It is a business environment, no longer the preserve of the politically ignorant and ambivalent. Everything has a reason behind it and as long as you stay aware of those reasons and kkepp your eyes and your mind open, you will survive ahead of those who choose to drip like septic arses about 'change'.

Not all changes are great, but then again we aren't involved in an employment which gives us a say. Thems the breaks. That much has never changed.

Levers

Are you generally a patronising t.wat, or making a special effort on this occasion.
Have a look at more recent history, during the 60s the Frigate I was on and one other did disaster relief in the WI, the same two ships stopped riots in British Honduras (now Belize) and guarded major points in the Capital for seven days until the Army Spearhead division got their act together and took over. During the same time I was engaged in armed beach landings searching out Anti Castro rebels on Briitish protectorate Island in the WI. I also served in the Far Flung during the Indonesian troubles. Others were off Icelantic waters during the Cod Wars, if you have ever been a Submariner you will know the Submariners role during the Cold War. The Navy has always been at the forefront of disaster relief and what in our day was called Aid to Civil Powers.
Yes there wee Jollies and I suspect there still are, but don't run away with the idea that the new Navy is doing something new, its doing what its always done, the job it gets paid for.
The biggest difference between the two eras, in the '60's more manpower and ships, most of the ships were tired being wartime construction but with new builds coming into service. Now a days, fewer ships and men but far superior equipment.
 
higthepig said:
...so many saying roll on my time,morale appears to me to be very,very low,gays ,gay marriages,all for the good of the service,i have said before ive got nothing against gays,i just cant under stand why there is so much against the old navy...

This reminds me of the criticism of women being allowed afloat, which I was all for and still am. There was the 'Women... i've nothing against women, but...' brigade. I recall that straight marriage used to cause problems for personnel retention with wives becoming dissatisfied with hubby being away at sea and hubby missing the pleasures of home life (screaming kids, nagging wife, etc :wink: ). ...straights, straight marriages, all for the good of the service, as I said, I've got nothing against straights...

Am I mistaken: did the Service not have gays before they were officially allowed a few years ago, instead of being kicked out at the same time as the bigwigs moaned about skilled manpower shortages! I have no recollection that this caused any real problems at the messdeck level. Are you saying that their official recognition and them being allowed to enter into partnerships just as the rest of us always could (with women), is causing problems with morale? How?

Also I'm a bit mystified: if you have nothing against gays in the Service, why mention them as if they are the problem?
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
janner said:
Levers_Aligned said:
Nutty said:
his dit...

Listen. As much as people bemoan the 'outsourcing' of services to contractors, no one can convince me that having a gigantic civil service which ran everything dockyard and beyond was much cop at all, especially when most of it is in the grip of the unions. I am of an age where I remember ten dockies to one job and shitloads of shrapnel sat in FMG stealing taxpayers cash by doing fuck-all. Take a big, fat look around you at the switch from manufacturing and industry to services. It was the only way this country could compete in Europe and coupled with that was the fact that within our little empire, there was at least twenty thousand tons of flesh wobbling about which could be either disposed of or re-employed. We don't build ships any more in our yards and they became hideously expensive to upkeep at the expense of the taxpayer. Yes, 'tax'. And strangely enough, the cost of living has remained comparitively low in recent years, thanks to measures that mean that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to defend this country with twenty Type 23s sat alongside doing jack shit and Type 42s burning 15 tons of diesel an hour teararsing along the south coast. Some of you guys have difficulty in comprehending that the navy is no longer a romantic game played out for your own benefit. Sure, you can dip in and make the most of the advantages therein, but please, get it into your minds that where once the government splashed out billions on keeping transiting fleets at sea from one run ashore to another for the sake of Harry and the King, nowdays we have different priorities and certainly face different challenges. It is a business environment, no longer the preserve of the politically ignorant and ambivalent. Everything has a reason behind it and as long as you stay aware of those reasons and kkepp your eyes and your mind open, you will survive ahead of those who choose to drip like septic arses about 'change'.

Not all changes are great, but then again we aren't involved in an employment which gives us a say. Thems the breaks. That much has never changed.

Levers

Are you generally a patronising t.wat, or making a special effort on this occasion.
Have a look at more recent history, during the 60s the Frigate I was on and one other did disaster relief in the WI, the same two ships stopped riots in British Honduras (now Belize) and guarded major points in the Capital for seven days until the Army Spearhead division got their act together and took over. During the same time I was engaged in armed beach landings searching out Anti Castro rebels on Briitish protectorate Island in the WI. I also served in the Far Flung during the Indonesian troubles. Others were off Icelantic waters during the Cod Wars, if you have ever been a Submariner you will know the Submariners role during the Cold War. The Navy has always been at the forefront of disaster relief and what in our day was called Aid to Civil Powers.
Yes there wee Jollies and I suspect there still are, but don't run away with the idea that the new Navy is doing something new, its doing what its always done, the job it gets paid for.
The biggest difference between the two eras, in the '60's more manpower and ships, most of the ships were tired being wartime construction but with new builds coming into service. Now a days, fewer ships and men but far superior equipment.

Trying hard to see what your point is, there. So, are you saying that Fountain Lake back in the day was empty, and every grey was doing what you did 365? I suggest you compare pictures of them there fabulous days (and I can remember them, believe me) and today, where the only ships alongside are either taking main leave, or are having periodic maintenance periods. Ships alongside are loss making assets. Ones at sea doing what matelots do are paying for themselves.

Like I say, thems the breaks.

Levers
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
" loss making assets" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry levers but I think you have given yourself away, you are obviously a patronising T*at
 
WEll nozzer well just have to agree to disagree,of course there were gays ,and if caught were booted out,tho it wasnt hidden so much as the officer class(if you doubt that,read naval history)of a day far far older than ours.As for marriage or civil partnership between them,how do they have children?If iwere a muslim and said behead them all that would be ok(and it has been said)But as a christian i cant say that or im carted off,Ihave an old friend who is ravingly gay, but hes nice to talk to ,hes very comical and he never goes on to anyone of his sexual preference,but firmly believes that marriage is for males and females; but then again,in this day and age of political correctness God knows where it will end. ill live my life you live yours.
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
chieftiff said:
" loss making assets" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry levers but I think you have given yourself away, you are obviously a patronising T*at

Maybe so. I'm not the one dripping about 'progress', advocating bullying and generally missing the whole fucking mission, am I?

Left to the 'Disconcerteds of Whereversville', we'd still be in nylon 8's and calling each other 'matey' over babies heads breakfasts whilst our crappy old Leander sunk into the mud off South West Wall. Jesus. It's all relative. Things move on. The computer got invented. Women got the vote. We won the war, for fuck's sake. Move the fuck on, won't you?

Levers
 
Levers_Aligned said:
chieftiff said:
" loss making assets" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry levers but I think you have given yourself away, you are obviously a patronising T*at

Maybe so. I'm not the one dripping about 'progress', advocating bullying and generally missing the whole fucking mission, am I?

Left to the 'Disconcerteds of Whereversville', we'd still be in nylon 8's and calling each other 'matey' over babies heads breakfasts whilst our crappy old Leander sunk into the mud off South West Wall. Jesus. It's all relative. Things move on. The computer got invented. Women got the vote. We won the war, for fuck's sake. Move the fuck on, won't you?

Levers

Levers

Once again you have missed the point. I and others are not dripping about progress only the road which people such as yourself have taken it down which appears to advocate a lack of Individual Responsibility, an apparent Lowering of Standards to meet targets, cutting costs with little regard for the consequences et-al.

Even at Ganges I never ever considered I was bullied, I hardly call doubling around the parade ground with a Lee Enfield 303, or bunny hops up and down Faith Hope and Charity as bullying. Just a way to keep 38 stroppy 15 year old in line. Once out of Ganges I never saw any such actions take place. Let alone by a 3 badge AB/LS such creatures did not exist, least I never met one, not at sea and other than for courses I never had a shore draft in 12 years.

Nylon 8'ts. well that was progress from the pure heavy duty cotton ones I was issued with in 1961. Some forward think person did well there then.

I loved babies heads but not for breakfast, I much preferred shit on a raft (Excreta a-la KonTikki to you Officers) for breakfasts.

So lets move on and correct all the mistakes that have been made. Not claim its progress cos we have Fucked Up

Nutty
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
Nutty
you are wasting your time, the blinkers are firmly in place, the PC world is looking good and you can't discuss anything with someone who only reads the parts of a post that suits them.
 

dt018a9667

War Hero
Well said `Janner` it was not all roses in those das and the same thigs carried on through the 70s & 80s and we did not live on the luxry liners of today!!

Don`t know about the 90s as iwas out by then
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
I saw very little bullying during my time, and that was all during the training period. Being pushed away from the side of the swimming pool with a large pole whilst quietly drowning, being tapped with a sawn off billiard cue when learning to touch type, the rules were you didn't look at the keys, if you did you risked the cue. During the first couple of weeks in basic training if anyone spoke after lights out the whole mess was punished, doubling up and down the road at Mercury in PJ's, Pussers Burberry and Gas Mask was a favourite, is it bullying or discipline, as Nutty says we were stroppy youngsters.

I never witnessed any bullying onboard Ship or in Boats, I've thought long and hard about this and the only time that I can remember anyone laying hands on anyone else was when one youngster lost the plot during one of the bad times on a boat (the DE men will remember how things used to go wrong at times) and a Canadian Killick delivered one of the sweetest uppercuts that I have ever seen, it put the lad out cold and when he came around he was fine. I should add that as his panic grew all other avenues of reason had been tried.

I have no doubts that there were incidents that should not have happened and no doubt they still happen today, but, lets not let the PC brigade re write history and produce it in the way that suits them
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
Nutty said:
Levers_Aligned said:
chieftiff said:
" loss making assets" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry levers but I think you have given yourself away, you are obviously a patronising T*at

Maybe so. I'm not the one dripping about 'progress', advocating bullying and generally missing the whole fucking mission, am I?

Left to the 'Disconcerteds of Whereversville', we'd still be in nylon 8's and calling each other 'matey' over babies heads breakfasts whilst our crappy old Leander sunk into the mud off South West Wall. Jesus. It's all relative. Things move on. The computer got invented. Women got the vote. We won the war, for fuck's sake. Move the fuck on, won't you?

Levers

Levers

Once again you have missed the point. I and others are not dripping about progress only the road which people such as yourself have taken it down which appears to advocate a lack of Individual Responsibility, an apparent Lowering of Standards to meet targets, cutting costs with little regard for the consequences et-al.

Even at Ganges I never ever considered I was bullied, I hardly call doubling around the parade ground with a Lee Enfield 303, or bunny hops up and down Faith Hope and Charity as bullying. Just a way to keep 38 stroppy 15 year old in line. Once out of Ganges I never saw any such actions take place. Let alone by a 3 badge AB/LS such creatures did not exist, least I never met one, not at sea and other than for courses I never had a shore draft in 12 years.

Nylon 8'ts. well that was progress from the pure heavy duty cotton ones I was issued with in 1961. Some forward think person did well there then.

I loved babies heads but not for breakfast, I much preferred shit on a raft (Excreta a-la KonTikki to you Officers) for breakfasts.

So lets move on and correct all the mistakes that have been made. Not claim its progress cos we have Fucked Up

Nutty

And I don't call what you stated there 'bullying' either. I think you'll find that some aspects of modern training still uphold your methods. Having recently been involved in the training of recruits and phase 2 and 3s, I can vouch for that. Toughening up young people's attitudes for the challenge ahead isn't bullying. Arbirarily meting out punishments for your own satisfaction of because of a personal vendetta is. One of the problems with this responsibility is that many today haven't a clue how to use it effectively, and I again can vouch that this has gone on for too long...jumped up little fuckers with hooks on their arms who don't know the meaning of the word 'leadership', whose concept of such is to victimise and villify. It's not good for the system, and it's not good for retention. Knowing how to use your presence is a far better way than dishing out 'doffings' and singling out an individual because he doesn't fit in with the click.

Levers
 
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