pc and bullying

Discussion in 'Diamond Lil's' started by higthepig, Apr 1, 2006.

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  1. I dont really know where to put this one,it seems when you look at a lot of pages(not the funnies and the banter)but there seems to be in the modern navy a lot of bullying,hand on heart, ive never seen any,wait a minute tho, is not name calling a sort of bullying?then i was abully and was well and truly bullied too.Some people seem to think that us oldies were never at sea with ethnic minorities,what aload of crap that is,and the same people seem to think that being pc is the bees knees,as ye sow ,so shall ye reap.I imagine that now with a messdeck of english welsh scots irish and OTHER ethnic minorities,it would be frowned upon to come out with ,you welsh pratt for example,my god you would never get to sea for litigation,and oh yes its going to come which reminds me of the day i accidentaly knocked over my mates tot, with great sadness in his eyes,he looked at me,and in his gentle irish brogue,said to me affectionally,You sheep shaggin,kilt swingin,sporran spinnin,caber tossin,bagpipe blowin,haggis yafflin,porrige yompin,heather pickin,thistle arsed scots bastard,do you think today that i could sue?.
  2. Lil's would of been a good start!

    Depends how 'out of contexted' you take bullying. Sticks and stones...........................
  3. Things have got out of hand these days. If you were a Jock and joined the mob you normally got caled Jock, and if you made the fatal mistake of saying "I don't like that name" oops!!
    Now little cry babies will scream bullying at the slightest name calling or labeling. No we shouldn't be throwing people a beating onboard (unless thieving or similar is involved), but a smack of the dish is not always a bad thing. Is it ok to kick the sh"t out of someone for humiliation? No! Is a dig in the guts ok when some gobby junior thinks because he is physicaly bigger than you doesn't have to obey rules? Of course.
    The real worry would be someone who blubs at a clip round the ear or a nickname going to war with you, puts it into perspective.
    Fighting force, warriors, defenders......
    No place for cry babies, never has been, never will be.
  4. janner

    janner War Hero Book Reviewer

    You sheep shaggin,kilt swingin,sporran spinnin,caber tossin,bagpipe blowin,haggis yafflin,porrige yompin,heather pickin,thistle arsed scots bastard,do you think today that i could sue?.

    What for?
  5. Nice one janner,now that i have it in writing,hope you are still serving and stinking rich.

    If we cant laugh at ourselves,who the hell can we laugh at these days?
  6. Levers_Aligned

    Levers_Aligned War Hero Moderator

    So, why are you not still in the mob, and campaigning for the old 'one in the guts' to the gobby sprogs, then? Serious question. Was it that the winds of change proved to much for a hardy old salt like you? Did you stick in your notice because 'it's not the same any more', or 'it's lost all it's fun-factor'.

    Or was it other reasons? Come on. I'm intrigued. You're not shy about giving us your opinion about everything else. Just why did you leave the mob?

  7. It wasn't the loss of the fun factor, because that never really disappeared, fun can be made out of anything as long as you have a sense of humour and don't take life too seriously.
    As for the mob not being what it used to be, that is definite. The life on my last ship was good, the lads in my section were the best of the best, I led by example and although we weren't against the odd scudding to enforce a point, it was rarely required. I never once had to tell my boys how to be the best turned out and positively motivated onboard, but they were, they did as I did and conducted themselves in the same way. They were smart, technicaly adept and respectful, but then we were a small unit out of the "mainstream" navy and had the freedom to train as we saw fit with more authority per rank than is allowed normaly.
    Towards the end of my career I came full circle and became an Instructor (which I surprisingly enjoyed), and the joy I got from the interest of sutdents who really wanted to be a part of the team and learn something was amazing. No, I did not teach in an "orthodox" manner and it certainly was outside the politicaly correct arena, but my results spoke for themselves and it was a great success ( I would surely have been binned by some of the Dartmouth schooly types if they had their way, but my results were always better than theirs because A I knew what I was teaching and about real life on ships and what the kids needed to know and B Having a bad ass warrant on your side who prefered results to politics was nice (shame they are a dying breed).
    Unfortunately, the motivated interested students were no more than 25% at best Fact, and that just isn;t good enough, I was even ordered to pass certain categories of student (for numbers) which I refused to do, but of course they couldn't take that one as far as I was prepared to.
    It soon became apparent that we were getting too few people in the mob that were going to make the grade, not what we needed at all. Also with the way the fleet was going, there was the looming threat of having to serve on Pompey 42s and not much else. Having gone outside mainstream navy for so many years and having so much responsibilty, going back to warship mentality was gonna be bad. By the way, working with the Royals really is a breath of fresh air, and I would recommend it, they actualy treat you like an adult. I spent a couple of months on the sausage prior to leaving and it was as I feared. So, I took my own advice to all those fat whiners who sit around staff rooms and canteens complaining about the mob, if you don't like it , leave.
    I did everything I wanted to in the mob, acheived more than I thought possible, loved it and it set me up for a life and a dream job that I never could have hoped to have without my military experience.
    Lucky for me I got out "just" before it got too bad and before I got too bitter. Some of my comrades who are on extended service for purely financial reasons tell me they wish they could say the same.
  8. Levers_Aligned

    Levers_Aligned War Hero Moderator

    Fair enough. I'm not going to criticise you for doing what you thought was best for you at the time. To me, it seems that you had problems adapting to the changes, but that is just opinion, and not, as you keep saying, a fact. For myself, I have seen gigantic change, and most of it distateful. The OM brach fiasco was one such that it almost destroyed a large chunk of the navy, just for a whim of some high-end desk pilot who obviously under-estimated the raw power of the request-form. Voluntary redundancy also caused a fucking huge manpower defecit, one of which we carry through many branches to this day. My beef is that no-one's head appeared on a stick for it; if I make a fuck up that costs money and people's careers I expect to lose pay and gratuity for it, No-one's head rolled for either. See also soon: Pay 2000.

    But your point about change is made invalid by the fact that if we didn't instigate change, if we didn't look seriously how we run warships in the dawn of the next technological revolution, we'd still be steaming Leanders back and forward to Gib and sending carrier task groups into the Atlantic to 'show strength'. Strength against what? The 'old navy' as we see it and in many ways loved was built to thwart the Baltic and Northern Red Banner fleets from dominating the North Atlantic and cutting off American supplies from Europe. Where are they now? It's all too sentimantal to hang onto old ways just because they were a 'great laugh' and sat you in a predicatble groove from Part One until Pension. You are better off out, to be honest, because I'd wager since you left there have been more developments (and I'd say that the legalisation of homosexuality wouldn't auger well with your opinions and 'facts' either) but to be honest, as a married, straight bloke with no idea what gay people look like or do, I've yet to have my arse felt, in the way that the doom mongers predicted we'd all get when the gay balloon went up. Women at sea = trouble...so they said. Any more trouble than a messdeck full of jack on a channel night after a STANAFORLANT? Any more trouble than jack can be when he's had just a bit too much to drink and wants to take on all comers? Yeah, females have changed the atmosphere, but then again, so did gas turbines and the first guided missile destroyers. But 'pink and fluffy' is only that if you allow it to be that, and outside in civilian life, I'd say it was to the multiple of many times worse.

    Your drips about training, I can empathise, but not sympathise with. I have spent ten years teaching in and out of various training establishments, both as an instructor and in training design and development. I have never felt the need to bend rules to pass people, if they don't make the grade, they fail. If they continually fail, then the teaching methods need re-examining and if they are sound, then the entry-level criteria needs examining. No-one needs 'doffing', no-one needs 'rebriefing'. If you aint good enough and can't respond to remedial instruction, you're out.

    If you've found a niche in life, good luck to you. I will say, however, just because the navy rattled you out of your comfort zone and now you are free, unless you have salient 'facts' as such, expect the shit to come fast and free if you are outside, looking in, and tackle contentious issues with a frankly idiotic outlook. Whining about bygone years gets this organisation nowhere. I hear it every, single, fucking day in my own environment and I wonder why people get up in the morning if it is that bad. I remember the old navy and how good it was. I cannot deny that. Don't get me wrong. I am definately not a 'yes' man. I question most things I don't see as right, but I do have the intelligence to research the 'facts' and present them as an argument. These days it gets me a lot done.

  9. I agree with you about the OM fiasco, that was a disgrace, I hear that they are at last back peddling on that one. The points you make about change are not what I was talking about at all, operational requirements etc. are inevitable and I never question that, the kinds of change I was talking about were in regards to the restrictions placed on those in command of others, most subordinates respond to authority out of respect, but you are always going to have those who need a little extra motivation and no matter how much you harp on about it being "old navy" there are times when it is the only option. You cannot tell me it doesn't work because I have seen and experienced it, it might not fit in with the modern train of thought but there is still a place for it.
    You are also wrong about my view on queers in the navy 8O , I never thought it would be a problem to legalise it becuase they have always been there and no matter if you legalise it, "most" of them will not come out anyway. Why? We all know the answer to that and know that it is "old navy" tactics that would sort that one out if a couple of blokes were "at it" in the mess. Not modern thought, not very tasteful, but have no doubt that will be the outcome.
    About me being better off out, well of course, thanks for stating the obvious, I did my time, served my country, got my gongs and did everything I wanted to in the Mob and got all I wanted out of it. Then I made the move because to be frank, the mob no longer held a challenge, once you have done most things it then becomes repetetive and boring. My biggest regret is that the Navy does not keep up with modern technology, the fact that you can be using sub standard old equipment and therefore not producing the best results is a disgrace.( I know that in some areas there is modern tech, but not nearly enough) Being in civvy street has been an eye opener as well, when you see what is truly available in marine securtiy systems and sonars, it is a crying shame that the navy is not using them. There is so much available out here and it works, OK it may be a little advanced for the average OM but not really above the level of most Technicians.
    The snipe of yours about being rattled out of the comfort zone could apply to those who just can't leave the mob for fear of the big bad world and that maybe they will have to survive on their own skills and intelligence instead of hiding behind the comfort barrier that the rank provides. You only have to look at a lot of the extended service ranks who are still hanging on because either they don't have the relevant skills to offer civy street, or they just fear life outside (understandably).
    I agree with your training comments (80%) and you may not have bent the rules to get people through, but unfortunately that is not always the case, contacts in Fareham still (as of yesterday) say that it is happening.
    There is it, a little of both, I feel that a good scudding has it's place (old navy) and also it would be nice if the mob caught up a little with modern technology (new navy).

  10. Janner

    The version I knew and still use on occassion's when a "PJ" (Poxy Jock) upsets me is:

    "Here they come with pipes a skirling, Claymore waving,
    sheep shaggin, kilt swingin, sporran spinnin,caber tossin,bagpipe blowin, haggis yafflin, porrige yompin, heather pickin, thistle arsed scots bastard dooooooon fra the Glen"

    Must be a boats thing.

  11. I ken wha ya meen, laddie. Purrit in ma han an I'll gi ya a wonk.
  12. Bloody FRISPS!LOL
  13. RE You sheep shaggin,kilt swingin,sporran spinnin,caber tossin,bagpipe blowin,haggis yafflin,porrige yompin,heather pickin,thistle arsed scots bastard,do you think today that i could sue?.

    Like it bt what about FRISB
  14. For those people whpo alwayshark back to the 'good 'ol days' this is a little story i got told when i was instructing at CTC and they were trying to prevent the standards from creeping UP as they always do:

    "THere are these four gorillas in a cage. One day the keeper comes in and puts a step ladder with a large bunch of bananas in the centre of the cage. He then leaves. One of the gorillas starts to climb the ladder to eat the bananas. As soon as he touches the ladder the keeper turns on the fire hose and blasts the gorilla off the steps and turns on the sprinklers so all the gorillas get wet. THis goes on for a couple of hours. Every time a gorilla touches the steps all the gorillas are soaked.
    After this has gone on for a few days the gorillas stop attempting to eat the bananas.
    THe keeper comes in and removes one gorilla. He replaces it with a new gorilla. THat gorilla moves to try and eat the bananas - as soon as he move towars the ladder the other three gorillas stop him and beat him up. After he tries a couple of times and gets beaten every time he gives up. THe keeper then removes another of the original gorillas and replaces him with afresh one. This time whent eh new gorilla tries to eat the bananas the two original gorillas and the new(ish) gorilla beat him up.

    THis continues. Until none of the original gorillas are left.

    Were we able to ask to the gorillas why they beat up gorillas who try to climb the ladder they would just say "Thats just the way we do things round here."

    This is the tyranny of nostaligia. We do things because that is the way we have always done them. If we train like that we will cease to be a dynamic, flexible and adaptable organisation - we will instead be an archaic throw back who will cease to enjoy the operational success that our predecessors managed.
  15. Tyranny of nostalgia,dynamic,flexible and adaptable,archaic throw back,operational success.Reading these pages, there are so many who have not done pension time ,so many saying roll on my time,morale appears to me to be very,very low,gays ,gay marriages,all for the good of the service,i have said before ive got nothing against gays,i just cant under stand why there is so much against the old navy,and im very very sorry but im glad to have been in the old one.I feel sad for the modern one in the future,you wont have dynamic,flexible and adaptable or operational success,all you will have is he called me this he called me that nothing will get done ,eveything will be blissfully politically correct,my arse.and just who were your predecessors?
  16. Levers_Aligned

    Levers_Aligned War Hero Moderator

    "Morale appears to be very, very low"?

    So, tell me. Would regressing the Navy back into an archaic system of management raise that morale? For your information, morale is no different than it was back in 1979, when I joined. It bumps along, highs and lows, there is certainly no discernable difference where I am, and I'm afloat and in and amongst it. You're misreading things anyway and not getting it in context. Would you have liked it if your 'old navy' was as incompetent, class-ridden and wholly badly managed as the navy of the 1920s? I doubt it. Then your navy was a marked improvement on those barren times, it would have been unthinkable to look back and be nostalgic...even for later versions.

    My predecessors were very probably people like you, by the way.

  17. about time some one said it!! PC has a lot to answer for , and not only in the RN
  18. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    I love listening to matlows moan, it's like groundhog day. My Dad, Grandad and Great Grandad all dripped about the same things listed here, funny how they all encouraged me to join though and funny how the thought of Navy Days or passing out parade or other military extravaganza made them leap out their wheelchairs like marathon runners, even if thing were better in their day.....
  19. Perhaps it is this modern ultra career minded world that has changed the navy and not to the better if general opinion is to be accepted. Such things as

    "Tyranny of nostalgia,dynamic,flexible and adaptable,archaic throw back,operational success" ie. if you don't do it the way I have dreamed up you are a retard.

    "Deployments", Commission and attachments, SA and SA, Far East, Med, WI, Home etc

    "Part 1 training module" Ganges
    "Part 2 training module" SQ depot, Dryad, Sultan, Collingwood, Vernon, Pembroke etc.

    "life skills" growing up.

    It worked for for 100's of years when technical advances were far in excess of todays age.Then changed when ships and other craft stopped being the main priority of MOD(Navy).

    Outsource everything possible, Cleaning, Training, Catering, Maintainance. All major companies have done this and few if any made any gains from the exercise other than to damage moral. It's realy worked in the NHS.


    The world in now full of Psycho Babble, Rights, Counseling and Career Path's. Perhaps some form of return to Responsibilities, discipline, duty, Comradeship etc may help.


    Janner please put my toys back in the pram.
  20. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    "Outsource everything possible, Cleaning, Training, Catering, Maintainance. All major companies have done this and few if any made any gains from the exercise other than to damage moral. It's realy worked in the NHS."

    Here I would agree with you , it depletes our expertise and reduces second line jobs............but!

    "The world in now full of Psycho Babble, Rights, Counseling and Career Path's. Perhaps some form of return to Responsibilities, discipline, duty, Comradeship etc may help."

    Aren't all of these things we each have control over? accept responsibility grasp it and use it, practice self discipline and a sense of duty; reinforce to others that you have real principles. And as for true comradeship this only comes from trust, mates only trust you when you are honest and true to your principles. So perhaps not all Psycho babble.

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