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Para Major calls RAF "useless"

Now here is a constructive comment! The Royal Navy has over the years lost its own air force 3 times, not a good record, in fact piss poor. On April fools day 1918 the RNAS and RFC amalgamated to form the RAF. All the navys air power gone, the air mechanics and air crew all disapeared into the air force. After a struggle of 21 years the navy was allowed an air force again, unfortunatly with crap aircaraft. By the end of ww2 it developed into a very efficient service with the help of lease lend aircraft from the USA. from 1945 to 1970 were good years for the FAA with the following aircraft, Venom\Seahawk\Gannet\ Skyraider, and then, Vixen Scimitar\Bucaneer\ Gannet AEW3\helicopters. in 1966 the Labour Government decided to scrap the carriers and gone again was the fixed wing element and expertise of the FAA. The Invincable class was built as tho\deck cruisers as the navy was not allowed carriers, it was pure stroke of luck, not super naval planning, that the RAF developed the Harrier,and god knows what the end result would have been in the Falklands war without them, probably coming home with our tails between our legs. Now we have a Harrier JSF under the control of the Air Force, the navys air power gone once again, dont these Admirals ever learn.The Navy is now left with with less aircraft than the AAC (Army Air Corps). Just a handfull of helicopters really. The Army are in desperate need for helicopters in Afganistan and the Navy has plenty at Culdrose airfield in Cornwall, bad news, they are the wrong type, the navy , over the last sixty years have spent billions on sonar and ASW (anti submarine warfare) the navy has always had this facination with ASW, Why? Ijust dont know, we havent had a RN ship attacked by submarine since ww2. Since WW2 the only operational use RN helicopters have been used for ia assisting the Army in ground logitics ie Malaya\Borneo\Aden\Cyprus\Radfan\British Guiana\Falklands and many other conflicts, now the FAA has lost the ability to help out in any way with its aircraft. I believe the Harrier pilot that could not hit targets in afgan was a woman, can that be confirmed?
 
Now here is a constructive comment! The Royal Navy has over the years lost its own air force 3 times, not a good record, in fact piss poor. On April fools day 1918 the RNAS and RFC amalgamated to form the RAF. All the navys air power gone, the air mechanics and air crew all disapeared into the air force. After a struggle of 21 years the navy was allowed an air force again, unfortunatly with crap aircaraft. By the end of ww2 it developed into a very efficient service with the help of lease lend aircraft from the USA. from 1945 to 1970 were good years for the FAA with the following aircraft, Venom\Seahawk\Gannet\ Skyraider, and then, Vixen Scimitar\Bucaneer\ Gannet AEW3\helicopters. in 1966 the Labour Government decided to scrap the carriers and gone again was the fixed wing element and expertise of the FAA. The Invincable class was built as tho\deck cruisers as the navy was not allowed carriers, it was pure stroke of luck, not super naval planning, that the RAF developed the Harrier,and god knows what the end result would have been in the Falklands war without them, probably coming home with our tails between our legs. Now we have a Harrier JSF under the control of the Air Force, the navys air power gone once again, dont these Admirals ever learn.The Navy is now left with with less aircraft than the AAC (Army Air Corps). Just a handfull of helicopters really. The Army are in desperate need for helicopters in Afganistan and the Navy has plenty at Culdrose airfield in Cornwall, bad news, they are the wrong type, the navy , over the last sixty years have spent billions on sonar and ASW (anti submarine warfare) the navy has always had this facination with ASW, Why? Ijust dont know, we havent had a RN ship attacked by submarine since ww2. Since WW2 the only operational use RN helicopters have been used for ia assisting the Army in ground logitics ie Malaya\Borneo\Aden\Cyprus\Radfan\British Guiana\Falklands and many other conflicts, now the FAA has lost the ability to help out in any way with its aircraft. I believe the Harrier pilot that could not hit targets in afgan was a woman, can that be confirmed?
 
huffnut_cringe said:
......we havent had a RN ship attacked by submarine since ww2.

ASW was part of the doctrine of the Cold War, so I don't think that there is anyone to blame for that, but if we're going to talk about the last time parts of our Armed Forces were used in the manner for which they train, what about the Parachute Regiment?

The Crabs are part of today's doctrine, but they just don't fly much, especially if they're near to going "over hours".

RAF pals of mine have worked IRT, picking up casualties in Iraq, and much prefer working with RN fliers as they're treated like they're part of the team.
 
bunnyjumper said:
i/cflyingcircus said:
On a recent visit to both Fleet HQ and JHC it became evident that RAF are out for only one thing themselves and their ever increasing empires. :evil:

I'll take issue with that bit if you don't mind shippers. Although I'm RN background, my family work on a very large RAF base which was the largest stores in Europe. That has now been shut down and shifted to an army store (remember that when you complain about kit not turning up). To add insult to injury, said RAF base is being turned into an Army base. That don't sound like world domination and empire building to me!!

Plus, the GR7s that were uprated with more powerful engines mostly found their way to the RN pilots for use of the carriers, when the SHARs were taken away. Something that p****d the crab pilots off big time.

Anyhow, however you feel about the RAF, how does this sort of shit help our armed forces. When the shit hits the fan, we all need to work together. A bit of ribbing is one thing, but to openly and aggressively criticise the crabs in this way doesn't help anyone.

Let's get onto some more constructive comments shall we instead of believing everything the gutter press tells you is gospel.

Rant over!

Bunny jumper, that was my point. The Forces as a whole are at breaking point, the FAA is deperate to do it's bit, but appears to be suffering a slow death. As a ray of hope we've been promised new carriers. Carriers need a maritime based air group, anybody can see that. So why oh why are our "comrades" in the crabs doing all they can to destroy the knowledge base we have gained in this field by trying to prevent the reformation of fully manned and fully able FW Naval Air SQNs? Is this pulling together? Joint engineering policy has been forced upon us. Reliable reports from JFH are claiming the RAF aren't bothering, and remain using their old systems. Procedures we have used, successfully, both in peacetime and conflict are now being threatened with being binned by senior RAF officers, who have become the authority/sponsor of the associated documentation. Why, because the RAF have never done that/ done it that way, or, would you believe, it's too dangerous!

As I said, during my recent visit it was that two thirds of the armed forces were pulling the same way, with one third not... and that was the RAF.

As for the unfortunate news of another base closing, none of us want that, but being an old Portland hand I still find it hard to feel much sympathy with a reduction of further RAF facilities. It still beats me how it could be justified in closing what was one of the most useful Naval bases a counrty could wish for, whilst the likes of RAF Scampton was saved because it's married patch was needed and the dambusters flew from there!
 
I think you'll find that contrary to all the bollocks about who is better/worse and which aircraft is better/worse, the problem is, as always a lot more complex than that.

I believe that it is due to an erosion of skills in the land/air battlespace environment. Put simply the RAF and the Army have forgotten how to fight the air/land battle. We used to do it as a matter of course but as with a lot of skills it has withered whilst we have enjoyed the post Cold War peace dividend.

Uk units are not well practiced in calling/coordinating air support. There are not enough FACs and the the RAF/JAFC ATO cycle is not flexible enough to cope with real-time situations.

I was amazed recently when discussing the need for CAS in a tactical scenario with a Major in the QDG - he said he had no idea how he would go about calling for CAS!!!

The US, however ARE good at it.
 
Clouseau said:
Uk units are not well practiced in calling/coordinating air support. There are not enough FACs and the the RAF/JAFC ATO cycle is not flexible enough to cope with real-time situations.

I was amazed recently when discussing the need for CAS in a tactical scenario with a Major in the QDG - he said he had no idea how he would go about calling for CAS!!!

The US, however ARE good at it.

Very good at calling, very good about getting the a/c overhead, but sadly less disciplined about where they deliver the ordnance!
 
I/C Flyingcircus

When considering why the Air Force need so many flying Stations, we need to bear in mind the aircraft types and reliance on the weather. If an aerodrome becomes U/S, for whatever reason (dead aeroplane on the runway, say), the airborne assets need somewhere to go. If the weather makes an aerodrome unusable, be it local severe wind/turbulence, thunderstorm, low visibility, the aeroplanes in the air need to go elsewhere. The fewer Stations they have, the less options they have. Just because a B747 can land in the fog, it doesn't mean that a fast jet can; especially if the fuel state is critical. Putting all the necessary black boxes in place to get that capability would have a penalty. There is no room for it and every additional LB weight of aeroplane is a LB less fuel or munition.

Can we resist the easy temptation to savage the other Services? The BJ Major who provoked this thread doesn't seem to have a firm idea, for very understandable reasons, what aircraft were supporting him or who owned it/them. Close air support is one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs you can ask of FJ pilot; particularly if they are up against men with small arms in prepared positions. If the opposition were in vehicles (even tanks) or in open ground, it would be that much more simple.

The Americans are quite good at it and they had the A10 that was designed specifically for the role. I'm not sure, though, our Canadian friends would share our enthusiasm for their skill.
 
i/cflyingcircus said:
Bunny jumper, that was my point. The Forces as a whole are at breaking point, the FAA is deperate to do it's bit, but appears to be suffering a slow death. As a ray of hope we've been promised new carriers. Carriers need a maritime based air group, anybody can see that. So why oh why are our "comrades" in the crabs doing all they can to destroy the knowledge base we have gained in this field by trying to prevent the reformation of fully manned and fully able FW Naval Air SQNs? Is this pulling together? Joint engineering policy has been forced upon us. Reliable reports from JFH are claiming the RAF aren't bothering, and remain using their old systems. Procedures we have used, successfully, both in peacetime and conflict are now being threatened with being binned by senior RAF officers, who have become the authority/sponsor of the associated documentation. Why, because the RAF have never done that/ done it that way, or, would you believe, it's too dangerous!

As I said, during my recent visit it was that two thirds of the armed forces were pulling the same way, with one third not... and that was the RAF.

As for the unfortunate news of another base closing, none of us want that, but being an old Portland hand I still find it hard to feel much sympathy with a reduction of further RAF facilities. It still beats me how it could be justified in closing what was one of the most useful Naval bases a counrty could wish for, whilst the likes of RAF Scampton was saved because it's married patch was needed and the dambusters flew from there!

Accept what you're saying, but as far as I'm aware JFH was forced upon the crabs as well as the RN. The crabs didn't want it either. Has anyone stopped to think that that may be why they may be acting the way they are? Do you think they want to share their GR7s with go-faster stripes with the FAA? We're all taking the brunt of shit defence policy, including those of us on the civvy side of the business. Being in the business I hear both sides and believe me the crabs are about as happy as the FAA.

Portland - totally agree, and with the comment about scampton, but doesn't the fact that the MoD is closing the very useful and successful RAF stores base just goes to prove they're being subjected to ill thought out policies as well.

I hear what you're saying about the policy of the RAF though. I have heard that gripe through a few sources.

None of this alters the fact though that the "letter" published in the paper talks about an RAF aircraft, which may or may not have been piloted by an RAF pilot, which was supposed to have missed a target whilst strafing with cannon he wouldn't have had. It is infinitely more likely to have been a USMC AV8B harrier that was involved in that incident, since they actually carry cannon.

At the end of the day though, the RAF are here to stay, so we might as well learn to live with it. Wishful thinking about getting shot is just that, so why waste the breath. Point is, why have a go at the monkey when the organ grinder (HMG) calls the shots......
 
Been more about the 'para Majors' comments today

He's probably very pished off seeing his para guys getting maimed . Apparently when they called for a helo lift for the initial injured para who was stuck in the middle of a mine field the helo arrived and it turned out to be a Chinook . The down draught from its rotors is blamed for the further
injuries ---three para's lost legs and others injured with sympathetic mine detonations !!

They were eventually rescued with a lift from a US army helo.
 
Greenie said:
Been more about the 'para Majors' comments today

He's probably very pished off seeing his para guys getting maimed . Apparently when they called for a helo lift for the initial injured para who was stuck in the middle of a mine field the helo arrived and it turned out to be a Chinook . The down draught from its rotors is blamed for the further
injuries ---three para's lost legs and others injured with sympathetic mine detonations !!

They were eventually rescued with a lift from a US army helo.

Hmmm! That's definitely not clever.
 
For Bunny Jumper;

One last thing from me... I think I've said enough. But the fact JFH was forced on them as well is still no excuse for their actions.

However, at the end of the day, i do realise the situation isn't really within any of our powers to change, but certain parties could still approach it all with a slightly different frame of mind I think and i couldn't agree more with your statement about organ grinders, so at the end of the day it all comes down to Messrs Blair and Brown... but that has been another thread.
 
i/cflyingcircus said:
For Bunny Jumper;
i couldn't agree more with your statement about organ grinders, so at the end of the day it all comes down to Messrs Blair and Brown... but that has been another thread.

Yep, I think that one's definitely been done to death. :wink:
 
bunnyjumper said:
i/cflyingcircus said:
For Bunny Jumper;
i couldn't agree more with your statement about organ grinders, so at the end of the day it all comes down to Messrs Blair and Brown... but that has been another thread.

Yep, I think that one's definitely been done to death. :wink:

Naaaah, they're both still breathing!
 

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