Pakistan Christians demand help

Discussion in 'Diamond Lil's' started by slim, May 17, 2007.

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  1. We are told that Islam is a religion of peace.
    What would be the reaction if the Christian community in the UK responded to this and demanded Muslims give up their faith?
    A persons faith should be protected whatever religion they follow. If it happenned here I would expect the authorities to clamp down on it immediately.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6663305.stm
     
  2. Slim, no matter how its dressed up and "misquoted" etc, Islam is STILL the Eastern Bloc/Communist Party of Religions - You're either with us or against us, and if you're against us then you deserve to die. Whether that is acted upon is another matter, either there are TWO versions of the Koran, one for Liberals and one for Extremists, I doubt, which means that whoever the ruling council of the Islamic religion is (Saudi?) should get a grip. The very fact that they haven't means, as far as i'm concerned, that they are perfectly happy with the current and future ill feeling towards Islam.
    Lets face it, not all Moslems profess to be terrorists, but lately, all terrorists profess to be Moslims.
     
  3. Isn't this a little high brow for Lil's??
     
  4. yes I'll ask a Mod to move it to the Gash barge. :)
     
  5. Much like two versions of the Xian bible?

    ...two evangelical universities use the same quotes from the same Bible to make exactly opposite points of view about global warming.

    BBC article


    There is no single authority with respect to Islam, in the same way that there is no single authority with respect to Xianity.

    The version of Islam which is predominant in Saudi is a very simplistic interpretation of the Q'uran, hence its appeal to those who convert.

    Pakistan was the birthplace of Wahabi-ism, in part a reaction to the destabilisation of the Mughals by the East India company in the 1850s/ 1860s.
     
  6. Are you Moslem ?
     
  7. No

    I have, however, read the Q'uran, and the Bible in its entirety (I'm not Xian either).

    The philosophy in the Q'uran is interesting, and very similar to the other main world religions in it's sentiments, butersonally I find it overly simplistic and it takes away a lot of the scope for free will and personal responsibility for ones actions.

    The sufi tradition is intersting, but that's not seen as Islam by many Muslims, although predominantly the Sunni groupings.
     
  8. Just wondered why you call the Koran by its Islamic name, thats all.
    Koran is generally the western pronunciation.
     
  9. Habit I suppose, that's how I was introduced to it.
     
  10. [quote="Karma
    There is no single authority with respect to Islam, in the same way that there is no single authority with respect to Xianity.

    The version of Islam which is predominant in Saudi is a very simplistic interpretation of the Q'uran, hence its appeal to those who convert.

    Pakistan was the birthplace of Wahabi-ism, in part a reaction to the destabilisation of the Mughals by the East India company in the 1850s/ 1860s.[/quote]

    I thought Wahhabism (or Salafism) originated in Saudi, not Pakistan.
    Saudi is definitely the modern home of Wahhabism
    Is Pakistan not home of Sufism ?
     
  11. It's going back a bit, but yes modern Wahabi-ism is a product of the House of Saud being established in Saudi. Their philosophies were a product of education from the Madrassas in what is now Pakistan. I was sloppy in my terminology.

    I can't remember the name of the book I read recently, and it was a history of India rather than Saudi, that discussed it. Much else is scraping about in my memory as it's a while since I read much on it.

    When the Mughals were finally destabilised it seems that many moved to North West India, leaving the majority of what is now India to the Hindus. The philosophy they took with them stripped back a lot of the mysticism from Sufi-ism and went to a fairly simplistic interpretation of the Q'uran. This went as far as aligning with Sunni thought as Shia is itself more mystical whereas Sunni interpretations tend to be more doctrinal than interpretative.

    As I understand it Sufi-ism itself is derived from Persian influences on Shia thought, and later influences from Hinduism as it moved eastwards into a mature Hindu culture.

    I raqther oversimplified, trying to capture a very rich and complex history in three lines.
     
  12. Al Qu'ran is indeed interesting. Much of it is a reworking of the the Bible, but it is clear that forcable conversion is haraam (forbidden) and Muslims have a duty to respect those of other faiths living amongst them. The confusion that arises is that what the Prophet says in Qu'ran and the sayings attributed to him by his Companions (in Hadith) differ markedly in numerous areas. The Prophet's practice constrasts sharply with the Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) that later Muslim scholars chose to focus upon.

    Free will and personal responsibility are addressed in the requirement of Muslims in 'commanding right and forbidding wrong' , but even here debate rages around the degree of intervention as against not violating a fellow Muslim's home and creating a further wrong in, say, seeing his wives uncovered. The limits to action are debated in the famous instance of the goldsmith of Marw (in present day Iran, I recall) who was executed for his literal interpretation of Qu'ran (after the Prophet's death) but only after numerous opportunities to retract (which is, after all, how the Prophet himself acted). The grave is now a site which attracts visitors inspired by his story, yet his story is itself full of paradoxes. Muslims must take responsibility for their actions and exercise free will in deciding the extent of their personal inner struggle (the proper general understanding of ji'had) against temptations, etc viz a vis their duties as Muslims. Like Christians, the tendency is to do wrong oneself whilst commanding right in others, and scapegoating the others. An example of this is the custom of women being covered. The cultural reason behind this is that it is assumed that all men are lecherous, and his lack of self-control is dealt with by requiring women to cover themselves rather than Muslim men controlling their sexual desires!

    Personally I have little sympathy with Pakistani Christians. When Christians are in positions of power, as Western Europe (& Russia) so neatly demonstrate, non-Christians are bound by Christian law and norms. Yet when Christians themselves face similar treatment they claim it amounts to persecution. It amounts to hypocrisy in reality. One rule for Christians and another for everybody else! :x To paraphrase one of Britain's well known fundimentalist Christian lobby groups: 'If you live in a Muslim country you have to obey [their] laws'. Pakistan is a Muslim state and its norms and laws reflect the majority faith. Ideally all faiths and other philosophical beliefs should exist on a level playing field, but even in supposedly tolerant Britain that isn't so.
     

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