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One carrier to be re-designed - so ?????????

dyst0piate

Lantern Swinger
Scouse_Castaway said:
Does the SDSR lay out any changes to the stance on the future of the Falklands etc?

Telegraph reported this morning that the threat to the Falklands is only a Tier 3 threat, despite the Argie's recent rhetoric, and their South American allies. It notes the RAF bases remaining since the war act as a deterrent.
 
I suspect its the Navy contribution of being able to send an SSN to the region that is a bigger deterrant. Doubt the Argies have forgotten Conqueror anytime soon
 

Wilf

Midshipman
By RAF Bases, you mean RAF Mount Pleasant, with only 4 Typhoons (not properly armed yet) and a C-130. Oh, and 1 x Army Infantry Company. As for the rest, it's mainly Comms/Chefs/Techies/Med Staff etc. It's not much of a threat.

I've served over a year there in total (ashore not on DC/LC/Endurance or Clyde).

The UK Military presence there wouldn't stop the Argies for long if they really wanted to take them back. The whole point of the base on the FI's is to try to hold a foothold on the isles while the RN / RAF rush down reinforcements. But a carrier without aircraft can't really do that effectively.
 
The usefulness of a carrier and her Air wing is very clear in a certain situation during the early 70s involving the previous Ark Royal. The appearance of a Carrier and her accompanying battle group can if not prevent a situation then certainly be the deciding element in its outcome
 

Bergen

ADC
An explanation for the more obtuse:-

Camerclegg could not cancel the 2 carriers for commercial reasons [there was no money to be saved].

They therefore were forced to proceed with construction of what are essentially 2 all-singing, all-dancing, white elephants.

Camerclegg have no intention of ever equiping, manning or commissioning the hulls. Poison pills will be built into contracts to prevent this happening in the future.

No aircraft will be assigned or ordered that cannot be used elsewhere or cancelled with minimum financial impact..

The vessels will be sold at the earliest opportunity.

Meanwhile UK Plc will continue to remain a Tier 1 Military Power and well able to project forces anywhere in the world west of Scunthorpe and slightly east of Liverpool.

Simples ennit.
 

dyst0piate

Lantern Swinger
Wilf said:
By RAF Bases, you mean RAF Mount Pleasant, with only 4 Typhoons (not properly armed yet) and a C-130. Oh, and 1 x Army Infantry Company. As for the rest, it's mainly Comms/Chefs/Techies/Med Staff etc. It's not much of a threat.

I've served over a year there in total (ashore not on DC/LC/Endurance or Clyde).

The UK Military presence there wouldn't stop the Argies for long if they really wanted to take them back. The whole point of the base on the FI's is to try to hold a foothold on the isles while the RN / RAF rush down reinforcements. But a carrier without aircraft can't really do that effectively.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...lnerable-to-our-enemies-around-the-world.html

'Those in the military who support the decision to remove our aircraft carrier strike capability for the next decade point out that the RAF's military airbase at Mount Pleasant in the Falklands is the equivalent of having a carrier group stationed there. But the RAF has a squadron of just four Typhoon interceptors based on the island, backed by a small detachment of troops. The Typhoon might be one of the best fighters of the modern age, but there is a limit to the amount of round-the-clock protection four aircraft can provide. And I'm reliably informed by soldiers who have recently served in the South Atlantic that, if the Argentines chose to attack late on a Friday night, they would find the islands relatively undefended, as that is when the fighter pilots like to let their hair down in the bar of the Upland Goose Hotel.'

I see now :?
 

off_les_aura

War Hero
Bergen said:
An explanation for the more obtuse:-

Camerclegg could not cancel the 2 carriers for commercial reasons [there was no money to be saved].

They therefore were forced to proceed with construction of what are essentially 2 all-singing, all-dancing, white elephants.

Camerclegg have no intention of ever equiping, manning or commissioning the hulls. Poison pills will be built into contracts to prevent this happening in the future.

No aircraft will be assigned or ordered that cannot be used elsewhere or cancelled with minimum financial impact..

The vessels will be sold at the earliest opportunity.

Meanwhile UK Plc will continue to remain a Tier 1 Military Power and well able to project forces anywhere in the world west of Scunthorpe and slightly east of Liverpool.

Simples ennit.

Have to agree with you Bergen. My predication is these ships will be sold as soon as they're finished to recoup some money and JSF will be cancelled. RAF will be an all-Typhoon force which will minimize support costs. Cancellation of Harrier has demoted the FAA to an all rotary-wing force a la RAN FAA.
 

Bad CO

Admin
I have to say that the imminent loss of Junglie SK and clever RAF moves to mean they retain Merlin may make it far worse for the FAA than that. You've got to question how small it will be allowed to get before someone points out the economies of scale ......

Very, very nifty moves by the RAF who have long had it in for the FAA - IMHO
 
Bad_CO said:
I have to say that the imminent loss of Junglie SK and clever RAF moves to mean they retain Merlin may make it far worse for the FAA than that. You've got to question how small it will be allowed to get before someone points out the economies of scale ......

Very, very nifty moves by the RAF who have long had it in for the FAA - IMHO

Not just the FAA. Without the RAF Nimrod (or sufficient ASW helo carriers), the RN's area ASW capability is severely impaired and the continued security of the nuclear deterrent is seriously jeopardised.
 

Topstop

War Hero
More expence

Aviation Week.
"The U.K. has asked Lockheed Martin to assess the feasibility of using the F-35C in a buddy-buddy refueling mode. Under rules of the JSF program, countries must themselves fund studies into unique capabilities they want for an aircraft. Since the U.S. can rely on F/A-18E/F Super Hornets as carrier-based refuelers, the U.K. has to finance the engineering assessment on its own."
 

Handler

War Hero
Very apt, but of course these white elephants have yet to take to sea, never mind all the back-up and manpower needed to run them as such. This , of course includes the aircraft, never mind the pilots and maintenance crews or the proper port facilities. The whole idea is a joke and stand up gag fodder.
 

Paddingtonbear

Lantern Swinger
My understanding is that;

Prince of Wales will be equipped with Cats and Traps first
Queen Elizabeth will be refitted with Cats and Traps at first refit in 2022
JSF has to proceed simply because our UK industrial base is tied to 15% of all JSF orders. US pressure would also prevent us from cancelling out right.
As for Nimrod, there is now talk of adding a reconnaissance pod to the new Airbus Air Tankers and a UK / France UAV to at least fill some of the gap.

Lastly, as for Merlin, all the RAF ones are currently being transferred to the RN for Junglie replacements....

Not just the FAA. Without the RAF Nimrod (or sufficient ASW helo carriers), the RN's area ASW capability is severely impaired and the continued security of the nuclear deterrent is seriously jeopardised.
 

Handler

War Hero
We have all heard of US pressure, remember the scandal of the poor old TSR2 ? The pressure to take the F111 swing wing, which was a failure, so only the Aussies had the misfortune to equip with it. Back to basics, its always been the socialists who have cancelled or scrapped the feasible, leaving the tories to pick up the broken pieces and do a make and mend with whats left!
 

Troglodyte

Lantern Swinger
I,ve said elewhere here and next door at Pongolia that the Andrew will NEVER get any new carriers, or that if built, one would be sold and t'other would end up on bricks, but no one listened, I,m going the pub.
 
Are the Crab Merlins marinised?

Serious answer to your question according to Hansard:
House of Commons Written Answers 13 October 2011 said:
Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence

(1) what assessment he has made of the effects of the marinisation of Merlin helicopters on RAF Benson; and if he will make a statement;

(2) what assessment his Department has made of the implications of marinisation of Merlin helicopters for their capacity to fly hot and high; and if he will make a statement;

(3) what assessment his Department has made of the implications of marinisation for the weight of Merlin helicopters; and if he will make a statement;

(4) how many Merlin helicopters have been selected for marinisation; and if he will make a statement;

(5) what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of the marinisation of the Merlin helicopter; and if he will make a statement.

Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence is currently exploring options as part of the concept phase for the Merlin Life sustainment programme. It is therefore too early in the programme to be able to confirm details regarding cost, scope and aircraft weight and performance.

The implications of future helicopter plans for RAF Benson will be better understood upon conclusion of the Defence rotary wing capability study, which is expected towards the end of this year.

One thing for sure, if the RAF sees this as yet another opportunity to reduce RN air capability (and I'm guessing they will), they'll come out with all guns blazing.
 
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